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What is God's criterion for election?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by George Antonios, Oct 2, 2019.

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  1. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    I wish to understand what, if anything, do Calvinists reckon is God's criterion for salvation.
    His decree to save one man and damn another is based on what, according to you?
    Thank you.
     
  2. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    It is completely arbitrary. Hence, in Calvinism, your chance of salvation is left to nothing more than the flip of a coin.
     
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  3. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Not being a "Calvinist" ( someone who believes and follows every teaching of John Calvin ), I will answer according to the underlined, and not out of any of his writings:

    Exodus 33:19.
    Romans 9:6-13.
    Romans 9:14-18.
    Romans 9:19-26.

    Salvation is according to His purposes, not ours ( Ephesians 1:4-14 ).
    It is according to His grace ( Ephesians 2:1-10 ), not our works of righteousness ( Titus 3:5-6 ).
    People believe because they were ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ), not to gain it.

    Salvation is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ) not a reward for any act or desire that a man has.

    He saves according to His own desires, contrary to man's ideas of who should be saved ( Acts of the Apostles 2:47, 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, Ephesians 1:11 ).
     
    #3 Dave G, Oct 2, 2019
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  4. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    From man's point of view, it is.
    A flip of God's coin...which removes boasting and abases the proud ( Jeremiah 9:24, 1 Corinthians 1:31, 2 Corinthians 10:17 ).
    That is what most people find so offensive about it.

    The primary objections to election are:

    1) Man has no chance at redeeming himself by his own actions.
    2) It's not "fair", because God does not save everyone.
    3) God doesn't do what we want Him to do.

    Many more.

    What can be said, when all is said and done, is that anyone who is saved, will be very grateful for God not sending us to where we all belong....everlasting torment.
     
    #4 Dave G, Oct 2, 2019
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  5. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

    There is your answer (in bold font).

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
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  6. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Ephesians 1:11 disagrees with your deep theological response.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
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  7. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    That god sounds more like a devil.
     
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  8. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    To you, perhaps.

    Since He loved me and gave Himself for me, I'm very glad that I am on the side of His grace and mercy, and not on the side of His wrath.
    Judgment Day is not going to be pleasant.

    But no one who is saved has anything to fear from that.
    We stand on nothing except His grace...

    Period.
    But we stand firmly on it.

    My efforts at obedience mean nothing to Him, since it is Christ's efforts on the cross for me, and for His sheep, that are the only thing that God recognizes.



    Thankfully, I have Christ's imputed righteousness, the garment found in Matthew 22:1-14, Luke 14:7-14, and Revelation 19:8.:Notworthy
     
    #8 Dave G, Oct 2, 2019
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  9. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    God saves whomever He wills according to his own good pleasure for his own glory.
     
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  10. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    On the other side, man's salvation is based entirely on the flip of a coin...

    Only that "flip" is determined by men, and not God.
    Ultimately, He doesn't have the final say in who He saves...
    Men do.

    So, the people who "flip the coin" are making their own destiny....based on their arbitrary vote.
    In this "ism", anyone who is not saved, has only themselves to blame.
    While anyone that is saved has God, plus their own efforts, to thank for their eternal life.

    One is all of God, while the other is partly of God and partly of men.
    Therefore, the "weak link" is man, and salvation becomes dependent upon "the weak link";
    Those who cooperate with Him.

    In other words,
    Eternal life becomes a reward for performing the correct set of actions, and not a gift freely given by His grace and mercy.

    To me, that is quite an attractive set of doctrines, from man's standpoint...
    Wouldn't you agree?;)


    May God bless you, sir.
     
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  11. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    #6
     
  12. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    So you know the answer then?
     
  13. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    It's not a mystery, as it is revealed in God's word.

    Scripture tells us the answer, ITL ( Ephesians 1:4-6, Ephesians 2:8-9 )...
    Only it seems that you don't believe it.
    One thing that I would ask of you, is that you don't fault me for drawing my understanding of His words, from His words.

    To me, it's not a matter of "interpretation", it's only a matter of believing the very words on the page.:)

    Here, try these:

    " He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 )
    " But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 ).

    These tell me why someone does not believe God's words, and why they do not believe on Christ as their Saviour.
    I would hope that you both see and understand the significance of these, as well as many others.

    At this point, instead of being selective with what you believe ( at least that is how I see you treating Scripture ) about the Bible, perhaps you might consider all of His words as being equally true ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ).:Cool

    For example,
    John 3:16 is just as true as Acts of the Apostles 13:48, as well as 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9 and Romans 9:14-18.
    In this case, your # 2 would apply as on the surface, there are seeming contradictions in these passages when compared to each other.


    As for your # 5, I would never accuse you of that.;)

    Understanding God's word is both a matter of study ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ), and a matter of having the Holy Spirit in one's self ( 1 John 2:20-27 ).
    It has never been a matter of not being "intelligent enough" to understand the Bible, for many intelligent men keep misunderstanding it ( Matthew 11:25 ).
    It has always been a matter of God choosing to reveal Himself and His word to someone.


    Keep studying, good sir...
    He's revealed His Son and your need of a Saviour to you, so trust that He will reveal other things to you as well.
    As it stands, He has many precious truths to share with you.


    I wish you well... and may God, in his kindness, give you many good and lasting gifts.
     
    #13 Dave G, Oct 2, 2019
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  14. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    No, I don't. "It's a mystery" is a legitimate answer for who is elected.

    John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

    Why does someone sitting in a pew fall under the conviction of the Holy Spirit while the person sitting next to them does not?
    #6.
     
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  15. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Putting the word "seems" in your statement does nothing to soften your apparent allusion to an ability to mind read.

    Mind reading, again.

    Well, it's been a while since I've had someone question whether or not I believe in God's Word. Where do you get off doing this?

    Condescension is fun!


    It sure is heartening to know you wouldn't accuse me of being ignorant. But unbelief in the Bible? It seems that's fair game.
     
  16. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Ok the sum answer is: the counsel of his own will (Eph.1:11).
    But that begs the question: what do you think the counsel of his own will is based on? Again, what is the criterion?
     
  17. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    That's about it, George.

    I hope that helps to answer some things, and I'm sure, as you can see, that not everyone agrees with what most call, "Calvinism".

    His words.
    Each and every one of them.

    What He chooses to reveal, is all we need to concern ourselves with.:)
     
    #17 Dave G, Oct 2, 2019
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  18. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Again, it's no mystery if God reveals the answer.

    Romans 9:22-26.
    Ephesians 1:4-6.
    Psalms 65:4.

    Matthew 11:15.
    Matthew 13:10-11.
    John 6:64-65.
    John 10:26.
    John 17:2.

    Acts of the Apostles 13:48.

    Romans 8:29-30.
    Romans 9:6-13.
    Romans 9:14-18.
    Romans 9:19-26.

    Philippians 1:29.

    Election...
    God's choice of the sinner to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ), not man's choice of God.
    It really is no more complicated than that.

    A person believes because God revealed Himself to them by His word.
    They don't believe, because He didn't choose to reveal Himself to them, nor His Gospel.
     
    #18 Dave G, Oct 2, 2019
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  19. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    So, guys correct me if my following conclusion is wrong:

    Calvinists claim that the criterion of God's election [which satisfies his purpose and will] is an unrevealed mystery in the Bible?
    God never tells us in the scriptures why he chooses one man unto salvation and the other unto damnation, correct?

    As a follow-up conclusion, I can further say that Calvinists believe that the election criterion is a mystery which is never called a "mystery" in the scriptures [as are other mysteries, such as the mystery of godliness and co.]. Is this correct? Unless there is indeed a verse that tells us the election criterion is a "mystery"?
     
  20. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    No, it's revealed.

    Who he elects is not.
    But the "why" is revealed ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 ), as well as the "how".
    Agreed.
    Paul even addresses this ( Romans 11:33-35 ).
    I would say, "yes", depending on which facet of election one is speaking about.

    Some revealed criteria:

    The preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that are perishing ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ), while it is the power of God to us which are saved.
    The wisdom of God is a mystery ( 1 Corinthians 2:7 ).
    The Gospel is hid to them that are lost ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ).

    God's counsels are His own, and only that which is written is what is revealed....and He reveals plenty to keep our minds and hearts established upon His words. ;)
    Again, please see Romans 11:33-35.

    Not all of the criterion are a mystery, only the "who".
    He even tells us a little about that ( James 2:5, Matthew 11:25, 1 Corinthians 1:19-29 ).
     
    #20 Dave G, Oct 2, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
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