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What is Lordship Salvation?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed, Dec 30, 2017.

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  1. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Great question. I know he addressed it on an episode of GTY, but that was years ago. Phil Johnson may have mentioned it on PyroManiacs, but I would have to do a more extensive search to find it.
     
  2. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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  3. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Given John MacArthur's reputation and body of work over his preaching/teaching/writing career, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. The explanation seems plausible, plus no other sources have come out contradicting his account.
     
  4. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Here is the original wording:

    "Don’t believe anyone who says it’s easy to become a Christian. Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God’s Son His life, and it’ll cost you the same thing. Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic."
     
  5. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for the link. That must have caused quite a problem for ol JM.

    I still can't agree with the revised wording, though. "Faith’s fruit is seen in actions". I don't think that's the case (always). Paul pits faith and works against each other: "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith" (Rom. 3:27).
     
  6. Revmitchell

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    Lordship Salvation is biblical salvation. Since God gave us the freedom to choose Him or reject Him, to choose life or to choose death, we must also choose to take a look at the Christian life and to see what it not only costs Christ but what will it cost us in this life time. (Luke 14:28) We make Christ Lord when we first count the cost and then submit to Him by taking up our cross. This is a conscience choice and it is one to be weighed carefully. One who calls himself a Christian but does not take up their cross has not made Christ Lord.

    Whether or not we make Christ Lord in no way effects the sovereignty of God. He is still the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, but making Christ Lord speaks to our making a conscience effort to submit to Him in that manner. It is a phrase that describes mans heart condition not God sovereignty.
     
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    You would have to ask somebody who believes that. As I said, Christ is Lord no matter what we do or don't do.

    Ephesians 2:8-10.
     
  8. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Paul does that because there is a godly tension between the two. That is one the reasons Martin Luther had problems with the Book of James. He believed it elevated works over faith. I am not too hard on good ole' Martin for that error. He railed against anything that he even thought advocated a works righteousness.
     
  9. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    The comments I am reading seem to agree with LS's basic premise, except for the objection of fruits (works). We are not to be fruit inspectors; putting believers under a magnifying glass to see if their works are in keeping with their faith. But neither are we to exhibit a laissez-faire attitude towards each other. God did save us to perform good works, which He prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Eph. 2:10). @TCassidy asked, "who is the judge of those good works?". Well, ultimately, God is, but the church is not divorced from involvement. The author of Hebrews writes, "and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds" (Heb. 10:24). We do not have to look too hard to find that our Christian life is to be filled with service to God and one another. I can point you to Romans 12 which commands us to present our bodies "a living and holy sacrifice...which is your spiritual service of worship" (v.1); "Since we have gifts...each of us is to exercise them accordingly" (v. 6); "contributing to the needs of the saints" (v. 13). The fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-23 are spiritual good works, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentlenesses, self-control; against such things there is no law." Almost the entire book of James is written to show that true faith is seen in action. The Apostle John commands us to "love in deed and truth" (1 JN 3:18) so that, "We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him" (v. 19).

    What is the point of all this? We are to be disciples and show the fruit of discipleship. John the Baptist strongly criticized the leading Jews because they came to be baptized without an attitude of repentance. That is why he said to them, "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance" (Mt. 3:8). Repentance is not just a change of mind, it is a change of deeds. In the end, the final arbiter of our deeds is God, but we cannot use that as an excuse not do the deeds scripture commands us to do. We are to exhibit the marks of a disciple. Matthew 7:15-23.
     
  10. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    I’m nitpicking but this is the problem. If it’s what I do that saves me it’s not grace. Repentance is changing ones mind, going from serving darkness to serving light. King David’s deeds did not bring him God’s favor, it was his heart for God.
    Granted that a believers works can indicate that repentance has borne fruit.
    But this has nothing to add to the believers initial salvation experience.

    Rob
     
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  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Just because we must respond to God in some way (do something) does not mean it is works. There is no passage of scripture that says anything of the sort. Anytime works are mentioned in scripture it is a reference to the OT Law. We cannot apply that to "doing something".
     
  12. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    True, but that is a different category. It's sanctification. We all agree to that.

    True, but that is a different category. It's sanctification unless you think that men are saved by their works.

    Different baptism.

    This is what motivates LS folks, I think. They seem to be afraid that grace will produce laziness and a bunch of Christians looking for excuses to not live lives pleasing to God. The trouble is, the law does not produce righteousness. The gospel does. We can't hedge our bets out of fear that the gospel won't do its job.

    'Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.'
     
    #32 thatbrian, Dec 31, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  13. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Nitpicking? No. I understand your concern. LS is nothing more than discipleship. All of the works we do as disciples are a result of the new birth. The works do not save. They are evidence of salvation. If you can understand that part then you understand LS. You do not have to agree with it, but at least you will understand it.

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  14. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    John's baptism emphasizes what repentance produces. The same thing in the life of a believer. Repentance brings change of thought and deed.

    I am sure, if you dig up enough rocks, you will find someone who will say, "I believe in LS because I am afraid people are lazy." That is not what biblical repentance is about. It is not why Paul wrote Ephesians 2:10 or James his epistle. See my reply to Deacon. LS is really about discipleship. What are the marks of a true disciple? You cannot take out one of those marks and use them to attack the whole. Works are a part of discipleship, as is love and faith. It truly is a simple concept that came under the attack of revivalists such as Finney, Sunday, and even Billy Graham.

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  15. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Again, all of that is a different category. That all happens AFTER passing from death to life. Protestants have a category called sanctification, unlike RC's do.
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Yea.... look at his treatment of European Jews and of Zwingli, who upon hearing of his death (Catholics killed him, quartered his body and burned it on a pyre of dung) pronounced it the judgement of heaven on a heathen. Nice freaking guy!
     
  17. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    The part of this discussion that surprised me is the bifurcation of salvation into something that happens and something follows. Salvation is not something that happens and then is followed by sanctification. The two are part of the same thing. When Paul wrote, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12), he was not injecting works into salvation, he was commanding obedience. Paul viewed sanctification existing with salvation - salvation working itself out to our future glorification. That is how LS proponents see it.

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  18. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Without the distinction between justification and sanctification, things get messy, if we don't want to jettison sola fide.
     
  19. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Justification and sanctification are different, but they are also connected. When we are declared righteous before the Father, we are also set apart for the Father's work. We become disciples. Progressive sanctification should make us more and more like the Son. If the distinction between justification and sanctification is blurred, that is an individual problem.
     
  20. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    What do you mean by, "that is an individual problem".?
     
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