Featured What is Penal Substitution Atonement

The "both and" argument doesn't work with the actual argument here, brother.

 

Yet your only support is some hidden knowledge about what Paul and the others thought (nothing about what was actually written in Scripture). Do you not at least see how others can view your claim as very subjective (especially if the others hold to sola scriptura)?

 

Well, kinda. Luther pointed to Christ's merit but also to His blood in the fact that Jesus is God.

Yet this part is not what Luther taught. Do you see how you are mixing up ideas (here your opinion with Luther....in another verse, your opinion with Scripture)? You go on without any appearance of recognizing the shift.

 

We were speaking of Calvin and Luther, and yes - both of them appeal to Scripture. I'm not sure how you get to NT Wright (I've not mentioned his teaching....in fact, I'm not really sure what it is he teaches here), but I'm sure he probably appeals to Scripture as well.

The only person not appealing to Scripture here is YOU. I ask you for Scripture and you say "the OT/Jesus and Paul believed in PST" as if this supposed Gnostic belief settled the issue.

 

But they disagree. Can't you understand that???? AND this wasn't something that originated with Luther. PSA did originate with Calvin IF it demands a belief that God punished Jesus with the punishment the lost will receive at Judgment (which, per you, it does).

Both of these guys were alive at the same time. And they disagreed on this aspect of the atonement (not that it was substitutionary and penal, but about God punishing Jesus with the Hell that would have been our punishment). In fact, Calvin discusses this disagreement in his Institutes.

My point is that PSA is a fairly new idea to our faith. No one articulated the Atonement as God punishing Jesus with what will be the punishment of the lost at Judgment for 15 centuries of Christian faith. Not even one person. Can't you grasp that? This doesn't mean it's wrong, but it does mean it's new and apparently not so big an issue to make post-Reformation "heroes of the faith" heretics.

Yes, they believed Christ died a substitutionary death. Yes, this was penal in nature as He bore our sins. But what we are talking about are the parts you add and pretend they always existed....you know....those parts you will never reply with Scripture to back up (because none exists).

 

But only Calvin saw this in the framework of retributive justice. Paul doesn't quite go there. None of the ECF's go there. Luther didn't go there. But Calvin did.

 

It just struck me...is this not exactly what you've been trying to do across several threads? I ask for Scripture stating that God punished Jesus with the punishment the lost will receive at Judgment (Hell/Spiritual Death) and you try to link it to other people in history rather than providing Scripture????

Again, I'm not sure about your "man crush" on N.T. Wright (sooner or later you seem to toss him in the mix, not to support your view but to argue against him). But you have failed to even try to bring Scripture to prove your words.

 

Since you cannot provide a passage of Scripture, are you saying that God gave you a vision stating this? Or is it just Gnosticism...maybe something you learned from the Freemasons? Or is it that your tradition is enough to satisfy as Scripture?

 

Scripture states that men esteemed Him as forsaken by God (Ps. 22). And on the Cross Jesus cried out "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?". So we know that the Father laid upon the Son our iniquity. We know that Jesus bore our sins. And we know that this was the will of the Father that Jesus suffer at the hands of the Jews and they disown God's Holy and Righteous One, and put him to death. And this was the will of the Father.

But all of this is speaking of Jesus' physical death, not a spiritual death. God becoming man, dying at the hands of His own people, dying under the Law as a blasphemer, satisfies the demands of sin and wrath that was held against us.

What you add is that Jesus suffered the spiritual death of Hell as the Father punished Him with the punishment the lost will suffer at Judgment. This part is foreign to Scripture, foreign to Jesus' own words, foreign to Paul, to the Apostles, to the early church, to Christianity for 15 centuries, to Martin Luther, to the Anabaptists, to the majority of Christianity today. Yet it is the theory you have chosen to build upon. And you can't even find one verse that proves it as true.

 

Don't read into this, but arguing here is like arguing with a Mormon. You have deep traditions that you hold as if they were Scripture. When pressed you just keep repeating your beliefs as if they were Scripture without ever providing a verse.

Since your entire belief system hinges on God punishing Jesus with the punishment the lost will receive at Judgment, have you ever wondered why all you can come up with is the claim....NEVER Scripture to back it up?