What is the difference?

What is the Difference? Jesus is the Difference.

 

First of all - God ENABLES all to choose because God supernaturally and sovereignly DRAWS all to Himself (John 12:32).

Secondly - we already SEE sinless perfect beings choosing BOTH right and wrong in the case of Angels. 1/3 choose wrong and 2/3 choose right.

For the Arminian the problem is the SAME once God enables CHOICE for sinners by DRAWING all.

For the Calvinist - the problem is innexplicable (at least in the case of Lucifer, the Angels and Adam before his fall).

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan said:

I don't know about Calvinists, but, personally, to me it is not inexplicable. The operative word is 'created'.

I think sinless perfection of a created being does not necessarily exclude him from the temptation of sin and pride.

The only difference between fallen angels and fallen man is that Lucifer was able to convince a definite number of angels to rebel with him since they do not procreate. That is the number of angels in Heaven which God created are of a definite number. That's it. None will be added, we have it from the Lord's lips himself that angels do not give in marriage and do not have the ability to procreate. The fallen third of angels (no matter how many that number) is fixed to that number.

On the other hand, man procreates. When Adam fell, his posterity fell along with him. They bore the fallen nature of their federal head in him, even though they had the similitude of God (as Ray Berrian likes to point out to be the reason why man has the innate ability to choose good)thus the propensity or inclination to sin
is there, and since man is a procreating being, then there is [b[ not [/b] one man on this earth who will choose God freely of his own will because his will is completely subjugated to his fallen nature.

Your assumption that Calvinists and friends suppose that created perfect beings can never sin is wrong.

Only God is perfectly sinless, perfectly against sin, perfectly disinterested in sin because He alone in all the universes have no beginning and have always been sinless.

That is why Jesus Christ is the express image of God, perfect, sinless, disinterested in sin, completely submitted to the will of the Father, and God has predestinated all He elected unto salvation in Christ to be conformed to His image in eternity future.

 

Thank you. No disagreement from me here.

 

I was out of town, not ignoring or "running away" from you.

He is speaking about the fact that their works cannot save them. Its only through faith in God that one can be saved. In the previous chapters Jesus teaches, "With faith all things are possible." With faith we can please God. With faith we can be saved, but without faith in God salvation is impossible and without his provisions of atonement salvation would be impossible as well.

Wrong. What would be the point of pointing to the man's "stumbling block" if it didn't make any difference? Was Jesus lying when he taught that it was more difficult for a rich man to be saved? If is wealth has "nothing to do with it" then why did he say that?

 

npetreley,

Let's stick to the issues and refrain from unChristlike bantering. Ok?

You have failed to understand my point. Jesus is shifting their ideas that salvation is through works, to understanding that its through faith. So, he is talking about the difficulty of a rich man to be saved because a rich man is more likely to strive in his own ability (works) because he is used to depending upon himself in life, afterall he is rich and very self reliant. This is why it is difficult for him to understand and receive the the true means to salvation which is faith and reliance upon someone else.

Thus, when Peter asks, "How can anyone be saved?" He is really asking, "If a rich man, who has all kinds of resources and abilities, can't be saved, who of us can?" Jesus replies, "Its impossible for any man with his own resources or abilities to be saved, but anything is possible if you rely upon God in faith."

You see, its more difficult for a self reliant rich man to realize his need for God, its more difficult for him not to depend upon his own works, thus it is more difficult for him to be saved.

Now, does that sound like "debate tactics?" Come on. Let's just stick to the issues.

 

First, let me say I agree with much of what you wrote concerning the text and I would further explain my point if indeed I believed that I was responding to someone who was reasonably seeking to discuss the issues and treating me like a fellow brother in Christ. You have some unfounded notion that I'm somehow being deceptive simply because I disagree with you and have repeatly and effectively refuted your claims.

I refuse to discuss issues with someone who refuses to treat a fellow brother in the Lord with love and respect. I know for certain what the scripture says about that.

When you remove your accusations of "deception" and the like I will be glad to discuss the issues with you further, until then however I refuse to acknowledge such posts.

God bless you and I'm sincerely praying for you.

 

#1. It doesn't matter initially - since it is obvious that not all choose life. WE simply accept it.

#2. But it is explained - as EVEN 2/3 of the Angels "choose to REMAIN sinless and perfect" while 1/3 "Choose to EMBRACE corruption and rebellion". Its something we call "free will".

Not really. IF you "assume the Calvinist premise" (instead of "proving it) - that everything is determined FOR you - then YES it is a tuataulogy to say that 1/3 of the Angels were enabled to choose differently "By being given the ability to choose differently".

But IF you accept that "free will" IS THE PRINCIPLE that allows EACH individual to CHOOSE as they will - then observing that in fact they DO choose as they will - is simply the "expected outcome".

IF we were asking "HOW does free will work" THEN saying that "they people choose differenly is that they choose differently" DOES NOT form an explanation but rather a tautaulogy.

However the question was not "HOW does free will work" so -- you can not rework the logical "expected outcome" of Free Will as a tautaulogy.

In other words - WHY did 1/3 of those perfect sinless (non-depraved) Angels "choose" differently? You are asking "how exactly does God create the mind - so that it can choose rather then simply RESPOND predictably to outside variables"?

I guess we would need to "Be God" to know that answer.

But we do know that 1/3 of them "chose" differently and that they were not "Created so depraved that they HAD to do it".

And therein - Calvinism fails from the very beginning.

In Christ,

Bob

 

It really does matter that God calls all human sinners [I John 2:2] to their need of Him because this insures the Divine Justice of the living God. Without this vital factor the Lord would portray, coming from His holy Being that in fact He was/is unfair or unjust. And you and I know that this is impossible because His nature and decisions are immutible. [Hebrews 6:17-18]

Someone foolishly said, '#1. It doesn't matter initially - since it is obvious that not all choose life. WE simply accept it.'

Dr. Berrian

 

What makes the difference?

Its been answered. We all know you are not satisfied with the answer because we didn't say, "One guy is better than the other." The problem is one doesn't have to be better than the other to believe because whosoever can believe. The one who fails to believe is at fault and is acting in defiance to the truth.

Now, tell us what makes the difference between a Christian who obeys and one who doesn't? Is one a better Christian than the other? What about the Christian who chooses to believe Calvinism and the one who doesn't? Is one "BETTER" than the other? Did God give you better insight than us ignorant Arminians? I guess you have reason to boast, uh?

Why does God reward those who seek him? Isn't He just rewarding himself if indeed he is the only factor in the equation?

 

Skandelon,

You said, 'Why does God reward those who seek him?'

We gladly agree with the Calvinist that God woos men and women to Jesus Christ. Hebrews 11:6 is rather revealing about man and God.

A few things we learn. The Lord requires a faith/trust in Christ. Without this entity we cannot please God. Notice it is man who is required to 'come to the Lord'. God is a reality. In this passage it is not God in search of sinners, but man who 'diligently seeks the Lord. Notice the Lord did not chide sinners from searching into the reality of this saving, Divine Being.

Skandelon, I am sure that you also have more ideas on the fact that God encourages human sinners to search after, He Who is the truth.

Dr. Berrian

 

Why is this? How is anything MORE difficult for God? Where is this concept in scripture that GOD has to do more work to save some than others? Are some better than others that God has to work harder to save others? Can the ones God didn't have to work as hard on have room to boast????

God had to work hard on you to save you, but not me, I was easy to irresistability call.

OH BROTHER!!! How far are you willing to stretch the clear meaning of the text Nick????

Oh, never mind, you took your ball and went home....again.

 

I'll pick up where Nick walked off . . .

You said this about the sinner's ability to come to Christ. 'God had to work hard on you to save you, but not me, I was easy to irresistability call.'

Ray: Thank the Lord we both responded to His call through the Gospel.

Irresistably Call of Calvinism is not found in the Bible; it is the machination of the finite mind.
In fact, God points out in Scripture that even though He ministers to the human heart, the sinner has within his being the possibility of resisting the Divine plan.

Even without any humanistic explanation you should be able to be guided by the Holy Spirit to understand these verses. [John 5:40 & Acts 7:51]

In Isaiah 63:10 the Israelites rebelled and vexed the Holy Spirit. In Psalm 78:8, 40 & Jeremiah 19:15 the Lord finds a stubborn resistance to His call on the lives of the people.

Calvinism's "Irresistible Grace" is a misnomer to both wise, human, intelligence and to God Himself. When people resist receiving Christ as Savior, they have resisted not only His grace, but also His Divine and saving Personhood. That's why there is a Hell; eternal destruction will be the final destination for those who neglect or resist the call of His Divine Being. To think that God magically draws only His elect and then by His might forces them into humble compliance through His enforced and yet gift of faith, is a complete miscarriage of the Christian faith.

Dr. Berrian