1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured What is the Gift of Righteousness ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Dec 14, 2014.

  1. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,783
    Likes Received:
    158
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Romans 5 is in the context of physical death and resurrection. Why do think there's a universal ring to what Paul wrote?

    Why does it seem to say that in Adam all die, yet in Christ all will be made alive?

    Because that's exactly what Paul is getting at.

    By the way, not sure if you caught my quote of 1Corinthians 15:22.....which also happens to be in the context of physical death and resurrection
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God Himself commanded sinners to repent and believe unto jesus to get saved, was He confised at this point then, and you have the truth to give to him?
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    All people will have a resurrection of the body, but only those in Christ have Eternal Life!
     
  4. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    You are evading the Truth,

    They that Christ died for are made righteous by His obedience Rom 5:19 and Reconciled to God while they're enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10, their unbelief does not prevent that !
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Those who God reconciled to himself thru Cross are ythose who have place faith unto Jesus Christ, as they heard the Gospel message, and believed unto Life!
     
  6. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    What is the Righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ ?

    Rom 3:22

    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    Its the Righteousness we are made by the obedience/faithfulness of Christ, Rom 5:19

    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience/faithfulness of one shall many be made righteous.

    That is His Obedience is equivalent to His Faithfulness, which is called in our text "by the faith of Jesus Christ" !

    The word faith pistis means:

    II.fidelity, faithfulness

    The word faith in our text is Genitive which:

    Paul has in mind here the Faith or Faithfulness of Jesus Christ which is the causal effect of the Righteousness of God.

    Rom 5:19 could have very well have read

    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the faith or faithfulness of one shall many be made righteous.

    And this Righteousness of God in Rom 3:22 is revealed to Faith through the Gospel in Rom 1:16-17 !
     
  7. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    They that Christ died for are made righteous by His obedience Rom 5:19 and Reconciled to God while they're enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10, their unbelief does not prevent that !

    Now dont evade the point made with scripture ! Do you see the point I made ? Review it with me !
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God provided for them to get reconciled back to him thru the Cross, but they still MUST receive it by faith to have it effectually applied towards them!
     
  9. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    yeshua

    That comment is anti scriptural, for Rom 5:10 states clearly that they were reconciled to God while being enemies by the death of His Son Rom 5:10

    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Now you falsely say that they were only provided a way back to be reconciled, that is detracting from what Christ's Death did as stated !
     
  10. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,910
    Likes Received:
    2
    In other words, there is no point in preaching to the lost, Paul was wrong when he said we are save by grace through faith, and that faith comes by hearing the preached word, and the Great Commission wasn't really necessary, right? Everything is already done and we are reconciled to God while enemies of God.

    Honestly, savedbymercy, you seem to have adopted some weird position that certain scriptures override or outright negate other scriptures, yet you've never explained how? Was Paul wrong? Do Jesus's words carry more weight than the written words of Paul or James or the other authors, seeing as all scripture is divinely inspired and profitable?
     
  11. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    I don't know what you talking about , sounds like a rabbit trail !
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    2 Cor 5 "God was in Christ reconciling the World to Himself" does that mean all the world IS reconciled?

    not according to according to 2Cor 5 which goes on to say "We beg you on behalf of Christ BE reconciled to God" -- God is using the Cross to reconcile the World to Himself - but then must add this "ministry of reconciliation" given to pastors/evangelists... saying "We BEG you on behalf of Christ - BE reconciled to God".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,910
    Likes Received:
    2
    Allow me to try to explain it to you, then...

    You say that we are reconciled to God while we are still enemies, and you seem to be strongly implying that man is passive in salvation. Therefore I'm asking you about the necessity of preaching to the lost. If man is passive in salvation, then there is no sense preaching the gospel to him, as it would mean nothing, regardless what Paul says about it being necessary to people having faith. Your argument seems to imply that Paul was wrong. Frankly, your argument seems to imply that Jesus ordering the apostles into the Great Commission was unnecessary, as well.

    This is a question that I will now be asking you for a third time and you have yet to answer. I've even asked you if you had answered it to point me to the post in which it was answered, and I've gotten no reply from you. This question bears great implication on your premise.

    Are the words of Jesus in the Bible considered to carry more weight than the words of the apostles? Remember, Paul tells us that all scripture is divinely inspired and profitable for man. Consider that, if you say the words of Jesus carry more weight than the words of the apostles, then you risk saying the Bible is potentially erroneous, and that someone in the Bible was wrong in the points they were making.
     
  14. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    That verse does not invalidate Rom 5:10 ! Those Christ died for are reconciled to God [by His Death] even while they are being enemies, Rom 5:10

    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Believers, before they became believers, were reconciled to God by Christ's Death !

    Yeshua denied that here:

    Now it appears you side with him ! If you do, you too deny the scripture and undervalue the accomplishment of Christ's Death alone !
     
  15. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    What was imputed to Abraham for Righteousness ?

    What was imputed to Abraham for Righteousness ? Rom 4:3,22

    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

    Understand something, it was not Abraham's Faith that was imputed to him for Righteousness, simply because Righteousness is Revealed to Faith Rom 1:17

    17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    So promptly dismiss that error,but it was the Imputed Righteousness of Christ that was imputed to him for Righteousness, which he embraced by Faith. He was made Righteous however by imputation as a result of Christ's Own Obedience unto Death in his behalf Rom 5:19

    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    That being made Righteous is by Imputation, and Abraham and his spiritual seed are the Many !

    They are made, declared Righteous because Christ's Obedience unto death provided for them perfect satisfaction to God's Law and Justice, and that was charged to Abraham and counted him Righteous !

    So the it which was counted as Righteousness to Abraham, was not his Faith, but the Object of his Faith which had been revealed in the Gospel to his faith, the Righteousness of God, because of Christ's obedience Rom 5:19 !1454
     
  16. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    When God gives a Gift !

    When God gives a Gift, its not as the false religionists make it out to be, a offer for man to decide with his freewill on whether or not he is going to take it, for that is nothing but a diabolically lie, not supported by scripture, yet when He gives us a Gift He ensures the communication of the benefits of it so that we come into the possession of the Gift, or otherwise it was never a Gift given by God !

    Remember when the Jewish Apostles knew that God gave the Gentiles the same Gift as they, which is speaking of the Spirit, its because they seen it with their own eyes that the Gentiles had the same experience as they had at the beginning, for we read Acts 10:45-47

    45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured or bestowed out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

    47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

    Also notice in Vs 47 the word received the greek lambanō and means:

    II.to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back

    In other words, it does not mean something offered here, but something given so that it was possessed , obtained !

    The Holy Ghost was not offered to the Gentiles, but it was Sovereignly poured out upon them by the Sovereign Christ Acts 10:45

    45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    That word pour ekcheō can also mean bestowed upon !

    45 And the believers from among the circumcised [the Jews] who came with Peter were surprised and amazed, because the free gift of the Holy Spirit had been bestowed and poured out largely even on the Gentiles.AMP

    BTW this was in line with the Redemptive Purpose of Christ, that the Gentiles receive the Holy Spirit Gal 3:13-14

    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    Acts 11:17

    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

    Again they received the Gift because God gave it to them into possession of it !

    So whenever we hear of those speaking of Salvation being a Gift, but yet its not yours until you accept it, they are deceivers and liars ! Thats not how God gives Gifts , thats a man made devil inspired lie !1402
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    We, who believe that salvation is by grace through faith and not of works, and that salvation is the gift of God to be freely received as gift, as one believes (freely of his own accord) in Christ, are anathematized by you.
    This is wrong.

    We are termed "false religionists.
    We are accused of telling "diabolic lies."
    We are told we believe that which is "not supported in scripture."

    In short we are being told that we belong to a false religion and are not saved. This is unacceptable. If you want to post things like this go somewhere else. Such comments are not welcome here. They are against the rules.
     
  18. Getting it Right

    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen.

    :godisgood::applause:
     
  19. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    Righteousness Imputed without works !

    Rom 4:6

    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

    6 In the same way, David also pronounces a blessing on the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from actions:CEB

    Actions, Acts, Deeds are all works !

    6 David said the same thing when he was talking about the blessing people have when God accepts them as good without looking at what they have done:

    Its extremely hard to find any that Truly believes, understands and appreciates this nugget treasure of Truth found in the sacred oracles, and what it does really mean to have Righteousness given, imputed, charged unto one without works !

    Now most of us, if not all of us do believe that a work is something we physically do with our hands or just in a physical sense, yet though that is True, a Work is defind as such, however what the devil has caused many of us to fail to realize, is that a work is also done in and with the mind, the heart ! In fact, the greek word ergon defines a work thusly :


    I.business, employment, that which any one is occupied

    A.that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking



    II.any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind


    III.an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

    You see that ? Any product whatever, accomplished by MIND:

    (in a human or other conscious being) the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills, perceives, judges,

    Psychology. the totality of conscious and unconscious mental processes and activities.

    intellect or understanding, as distinguished from the faculties of feeling and willing; intelligence.

    intellectual power or ability.

    The greek word for mind nous:


    Hence, if we believe and say that our hearing, understanding, and believing something, with our intellectual abilities is the reason why God imputes to us Righteousness [which is Salvation], then we are contrary and opposed to the sacred and blessed Truth here described in Rom 4:6, and we are in fact advocating that God imputes Righteousness based upon and on account of my works, the works of my mind, the accomplishment of my mind ! Paul once wrote that he served with his mind Rom 7:25

    I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    So again, if we believe that we are saved and or receive Righteousness imputed to our charge because of our believing, our faith, any action we have done, we forfeit any claim to the Blessedness of Rom 4:6 !

    6 This is what David meant when he spoke of the happiness of the person whom God accepts as righteous, apart from anything that person does:GNT
     
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    This statement alone proves you wrong. With mind he exercised faith. With the mind he overcame sin. With the mind he pleased God.
    With that same mind a person comes to God in faith, yet being unsaved, and puts his trust in the Lord. Faith is exercised by the person. Whosoever will may come.
    What did Paul say in Romans 4:
    Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    --Abraham's righteousness came by faith and faith alone.

    Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    --Salvation is all of grace; those that "work" are owed a debt such as a reward when one holds a job and works for a wage.

    Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    --It is clear that faith is not a work. To those that do not work but simply believe (no work), those are the ungodly that are justified by their own faith. That is the teaching here. "his faith", that is the faith of the ungodly, is counted for righteousness. It does not come from God.
    Salvation is by faith.
    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
    This is true because faith is not a work."
    Not so, you have just contradicted all of the preceding verses where it is clearly taught that faith is not a work. Forgiveness is received by faith, not a work. That is how salvation is received by faith not by works. That is why David was blessed. He believed God by faith.
    NO, God gives righteousness. He gave righteousness to David, who accepted it by faith, the faith that He had put in His Lord.

    Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    --Faith is not a work. That is what the chapter clearly teaches. David received righteousness by faith without works.
     
Loading...