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What is the minimum info needed for salvation?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by canadyjd, Oct 3, 2023.

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  1. Christ died for our sins

    2 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. Christ died for our sins and was resurrected

    4 vote(s)
    66.7%
  3. Christ died, was buried and resurrected

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Christ died, was buried, resurrected, and appearances

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. God saves, in some cases, without hearing of Jesus at all

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Don’t know

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Very good discussion in another thread about whether a person can be saved without understanding the resurrection.

    Accept, for this thread, no one is saved without God Holy Spirit involvement and salvation is through faith in Jesus.

    The question is….. what is the “gospel”? At a minimum, what is enough info to qualify as a presentation of the Gospel whereby God Holy Spirit convicts the unbeliever of the truth that Jesus is their Savior by faith.

    In other words, if you leave “this part” out of your presentation, it is no longer the “gospel” and God Holy Spirit will not work to bring that person to salvation.
     
  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Romans 10:9-10 [CSB]
    If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.
     
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  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Let us accept, for the purposes of this thread, everyone saved prior to Christ’s death, burial, resurrection were saved by faith in the coming Messiah revealed in God’s Word.

    Thanks for the comment

    peace to you
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I'd say that Christ's death and resurrection are essential, but not the only part.

    The gospel, in Scripture, is not that Christ died for our sins. It is not that Christ was resurrected. Those are things about the gospel.

    In the Bible the gospel (the "good news") is that the kingdom of God has come.

    That is in a uniquely Jewish perspective (they were the ones looking for a Messiah to being about God's kingdom).

    The question was how we can enter into this kingdom.

    The answer Scripture gives is a rebirth (born from above, born of the Spirit, made a new creation).

    How much knowledge is necessary?

    We know a few things about the importance of the resurrection from the Bible. It was assumed in the Hebrew religion (take Abraham, and the note that the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection as opposed to the rest of the Jewish sects for examples) and it is what Paul called our hope.

    We know it is important that Christ died for our sins, died for us, shared in our infirmitiy (we can't ignore the Incarnation).


    The gospel facts were unveiled at different stages. There was the Promise - God's Word. Then the Word became flesh, Christ became as one of us, shared our infirmity, suffered for us, died for our sins, died for us. Then He was buried. Then He rose from the grave. Then He ascended.

    Now He is our Mediator when we sin. Now He is the Firstborn among many brethren. Now He is our High Priest making intercession for us.


    I'd say the information needed to be saved is, at minimum, the information needed to explain the gospel "in the now".
     
  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Brother, I do appreciate your comments.

    However, as an answer to the question, “minimum info needed….”, you really didn’t narrow it down very much.:)

    peace to you
     
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  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You are right. I didn't narrow it down very much. Everytime I started I ended up adding another point :(.

    I'd narrow it down to the gospel as revealed to us (as it is now).

    It does not do to say we are anticipating the Messiah and the fulfillment of the Promise in reliance on God's faithfulness because the Messiah has come.

    So I think the information has changed as more has been revealed.

    I narrow it to first to what the gospel is - it is God's kingdom here as it is in heaven (men can enter this kingdom). That is essential.

    What do we have to know of the gospel (how we enter it) to be saved?

    1. Sin produces death. We have all sinned.
    2. It is by faith in Jesus. He is the way.
    3. He died for us, shared in our infirmitiy.
    4. He defeated Satan and freed us from his bondage (sin and death).
    5. God raised Him from the dead and vindicated Christ.
    6. Christ is our Mediator. Although we die we shall live in Him. He is a Life giving Spirit.
    7. Those who believe in Him have eternal life.

    I am not sure that would be the minimum....but I'd say at least that.
     
  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Wow! Don’t you think that’s a bit much for an unbeliever to understand prior to salvation.

    Jesus never made it so complicated. He said, come to Me…. I will give you rest.

    peace to you
     
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  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    You didn't include water baptism in order to be 'saved'?

    16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

    38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    39 For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
    40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

    20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
    21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes. Without the work of the Spirit it is impossible to understand.

    Jesus gave us a very simple gospel - the kingdom is at hand. That is His gospel.

    But that simple gospel was within a context about God's kingdom, about sin, about the resurrection.


    Imagine repeating Jesus' gospel - "the kingdom is at hand".

    Is that really all we need to say or believe?


    Jesus went to great lengths explaining that gospel.

    1. Jesus explained that sin yields death and condemnation.
    2. He explained that if we believe in Him we will enter the kingdom.
    3. He explained that He is the only Way.
    4. He explained that He came as one of us.
    5. He explained that He must not only die but that He must die in an unjust way.
    6. He explained the resurrection
    7. He presented Himself as our Mediator.
    8. He explained that those of us who believe in Him will have everlasting life.


    Those are the things that Jesus said.

    Are we equipped to decide which of those are secondary and unimportant?


    Jesus explained the gospel using all of those points.
    I say let's follow His example.
     
  10. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Well, I was focused on info, not actions. If you believe water baptism is necessary for salvation, that should be a separate discussion on another thread

    Thanks for the comment

    peace to you
     
  11. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    but has been made manifest now by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who has annulled death, and brought to light life and incorruptibility by [through] the glad tidings [gospel]; 2 Tim 1:10 Darby for incorruptibility

    Is, life and incorruptibility, salvation?

    Does the gospel bring, salvation, to light. To understanding?

    Is the gospel about how salvation was wrought or is the gospel about how to be saved?

    For Ky

    From Matt 20:23 And he saith to them, 'Of my cup indeed ye shall drink, and with the baptism that I am baptized with ye shall be baptized;
     
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  12. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I find this to be a very good question.

    Is the “gospel” (good news) about how salvation is wrought?…..

    Or…

    Is the gospel about how to be saved?

    I think the first

    If true, then the gospel is not about “how to be saved” but rather the “gospel” is about the One who brings salvation.

    Very thoughtful comment percho

    peace to you
     
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  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Why would a Calvinist think that any of this is necessary?
     
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  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Good point.

    I'd say "the gospel" is the kingdom of God come.

    But there are things about the gospel that we also need to know.

    That "good news" was that God's promise is fulfilled. How can we make sense of that without knowing what was promised? And then, what do we do with that without knowing how we enter this kingdom?

    That was the question Jesus was often asked - "what must I do?", "how can this be?". And Jesus answered.

    So I agree with you - the gospel is actually the Messiah Himself.

    This leaves how we communicate this to others in a meaningful way. What must we understand about Christ to be saved?
     
  15. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    I'd have to think about this passage and how much she knew.
    WE KNOW SHE WAS SAVED. Jesus said it.

    Luke 7:36-50
    36One of the Pharisees asked him to eat with him, and he went into the Pharisee’s house and reclined at table. 37And behold, a woman of the city, who was a sinner, when she learned that he was reclining at table in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster flask of ointment, 38and standing behind him at his feet, weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head and kissed his feet and anointed them with the ointment. 39Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner.” 40And Jesus answering said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he answered, “Say it, Teacher.”

    41“A certain moneylender had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?” 43Simon answered, “The one, I suppose, for whom he cancelled the larger debt.” And he said to him, “You have judged rightly.” 44Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. 46You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. 47Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.” 48And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, “Who is this, who even forgives sins?” 50And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

    Maybe she knew he was the Messiah. She definitely did not know about the resurrection.
     
  16. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    You cannot say someone needs water baptism. Luke 7, that woman was saved and SHE WAS NOT BAPTIZED.
     
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  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Because Calvinist believe God’s Word, which says the gospel is the one and only means by which God is well pleased to save those that believe. It is not only necessary, it is essential.

    let’s not derail this thread please

    Peace that you
     
  18. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    The problem with the pol is that it is reductionist. I voted but I would have to add clarifying statements.

    As I said in another similar thread,

    I'd rather say that a genuine believer will eventually come to believe certain things.

    1. Jesus is Deity.
    2. Jesus was born of a virgin.
    3. Jesus died on the cross for our sins.
    4. Jesus rose bodily from the grave.
    5. Jesus will come again.


    And every one of those statements come with clarifying statements, footnotes tying them to particular scriptures, etc.
     
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  19. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I don’t disagree. The focus is on what is necessary for God Holy Spirit to convict that person of that specific truth such that they come into a right relationship with God, by faith, and are indwelt by God Holy Spirit

    A lot to f doctrine comes afterward, imo.

    peace to you
     
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