What is the Prevalent "Baptist" View on Evangelical Moderates?

[Steven Yeadon]

Two questions:
1. What about those who, in your view, believe the right things, but do nothing and yield no fruits.

2. What about those who, in your view, do not believe the right things, but do much and produce good fruit?

1. They show no fruit at all? And desire none? Then they are shown to have never had heartfelt faith and are thrown into the fire (Matthew 3:10).

2. Here I must ask you to define good fruit. Because there are plenty of Buddhists and Desists who do good works and produce what society would call "good fruit." However, if they oppose the cross of Christ, then they go to hell when they die. If you mean Roman Catholics and Liberal Christians, then I must include spreading good doctrine as giving forth good fruit. Although, here I am still studying things, but as Jesus put it in Matthew 7:17-19: bad trees will show themselves to be bad trees and good trees will show themselves to be good trees. However, we must properly define what is good and bad fruit.

 

[Billx]

Finding fault with others seems to be the board pastime. We are to compare ourselves to Christ and not those we think inferior.

Why do we find fault with growing churches? Why they are ear-tickling compromisers.

Why do we find fault with dying churches? Why they have left their first love.

Why do consider ourselves and discuss our shortcomings? Where do we fail to walk the talk..

The law was summed up by Jesus as love a god then because of our love of God we love others. To this Paul added do not fornicate and do not judge. These are the four spiritual laws. As Baptists we are free to let God speak to individuals via the writ. If we use our liberty as license to teach contrary to the writ the local church is free to call pastor or congregate on the carpet.

We speak the truth in love. We need restraint lest we find ourselves in a robe with tassels strutting our stuff instead of walking the walk.

 

[Crabtownboy]

1. They show no fruit at all? And desire none? Then they are shown to have never had heartfelt faith and are thrown into the fire (Matthew 3:10).

2. Here I must ask you to define good fruit. Because there are plenty of Buddhists and Desists who do good works and produce what society would call "good fruit." However, if they oppose the cross of Christ, then they go to hell when they die. If you mean Roman Catholics and Liberal Christians, then I must include spreading good doctrine as giving forth good fruit. Although, here I am still studying things, but as Jesus put it in Matthew 7:17-19: bad trees will show themselves to be bad trees and good trees will show themselves to be good trees. However, we must properly define what is good and bad fruit.

You brought up good and bad fruit. So, good fruit according to whatever you mean by that term.

I did not mean a specific group. But as we are on a Baptist BB let us say Baptist who say the right words, say they believe and yet do nothing and produce no fruit.

The question, "What is good," is one of the three great questions of philosophy and has been and will be debated for thousands of years.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Here I must ask you to define good fruit. Because there are plenty of Buddhists and Desists who do good works and produce what society would call "good fruit." ... However, we must properly define what is good and bad fruit.

Paul did an excellent job of explaining what the fruit of Spirit-led character looks like:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. (Galatians 5:22-23)

Character produces actions. If one's life is characterized this way, then one will also bear the fruit of good doctrine, productive discipleship, and helpful leadership.

Bad fruit can be seen in the character of one who is driven by the lusts of the flesh:

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)

Again, character produces actions. Those who have lives characterized by any of these traits will produce all kinds of bad fruit.

If you have someone who is "moderate" who has exceptional character, you can expect to see good fruit. If you have a "conservative" whose character is marking by outbursts of anger, disputes, dissentions, factions, etc., you can expect to see a lot of destruction (aka bad fruit) following them.

What do we learn? The Christian life is much less about certain theological stances (beyond the core fundamentals), and much more about obedience to Christ and conformity to His mission and character. In the final judgment, Jesus is going to say to many 'liberal' Christians, "Enter into the joy of your master", and to many 'fundamental' Christians, "Depart from Me, I never knew you." - and vice versa.

The real question is, are you a disciple/apprentice of Jesus?

 

[Revmitchell]

One cannot be correctly obedient to Christ without proper doctrine. Trying to divorce doctrine from character is just wrongheaded.

 

[Baptist Believer]

One cannot be correctly obedient to Christ without proper doctrine. Trying to divorce doctrine from character is just wrongheaded.

Since obedience is a discipling relationship, doctrine will eventually shift to reflect what is necessary to be faithful to Christ.

No one has suggested that essential doctrine is 'divorced' from character.

Jesus told a parable about a Samaritan man (bad doctrine and bad lineage) who demonstrated that he was of better character than than the priest and Levite because of his faithful actions toward his neighbor. It was a scandalous story back then and it remains a scandalous story today if we understand the context.

Doctrine is irrelevant without obedience. Even the demons believe that God is one.

 

[Revmitchell]

Since obedience is a discipling relationship, doctrine will eventually shift to reflect what is necessary to be faithful to Christ.

No one has suggested that essential doctrine is 'divorced' from character.

Jesus told a parable about a Samaritan man (bad doctrine and bad lineage) who demonstrated that he was of better character than than the priest and Levite because of his faithful actions toward his neighbor. It was a scandalous story back then and it remains a scandalous story today if we understand the context.

Doctrine is irrelevant without obedience. Even the demons believe that God is one.

Ok but here is what you said:

The Christian life is much less about certain theological stances (beyond the core fundamentals), and much more about obedience to Christ and conformity to His mission and character.

You cannot know his mission or His character in order to be conformed to it simply by knowing the fruits of the Spirit. Without doctrine obedience is impossible. This doctrine that is necessary for oebedience goes way beyond just "essential doctrine". All doctrine is essential and there is no doctrine that is not essential.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Ok but here is what you said:
[quoting Baptist Believer]The Christian life is much less about certain theological stances (beyond the core fundamentals), and much more about obedience to Christ and conformity to His mission and character.[end of quote]

You cannot know his mission or His character in order to be conformed to it simply by knowing the fruits of the Spirit.

One does not "know" (as in head knowledge) the fruit (note that it is singular) of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit occurs because of obedience and the transforming work of Christ.

Without doctrine obedience is impossible. This doctrine that is necessary for oebedience goes way beyond just "essential doctrine". All doctrine is essential and there is no doctrine that is not essential.

Your argument:

a. Obedience is impossible without [correct] doctrine
b. The doctrine essential for obedience goes "way beyond" essential doctrine.
c. All doctrine is essential - no doctrine is not essential.
d. Therefore, since doctrine is an all or nothing proposition, then obedience is impossible unless one has perfect knowledge.

Surely you don't mean what you have written.

 

[Revmitchell]

One does not "know" (as in head knowledge) the fruit (note that it is singular) of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit occurs because of obedience and the transforming work of Christ.

Oh then God was wrong in putting it in His word to begin with.


Your argument:

a. Obedience is impossible without [correct] doctrine
b. The doctrine essential for obedience goes "way beyond" essential doctrine.
c. All doctrine is essential - no doctrine is not essential.
d. Therefore, since doctrine is an all or nothing proposition, then obedience is impossible unless one has perfect knowledge.

Surely you don't mean what you have written.[/QUOTE]

Perfect knowledge would work to produce perfect obedience buuuuuttttt.....I did not say that. You have to know what to be obedient to in order to be obedient at all.Obedience does not just fall out of the sky.

Further I do not know what you mean by "since doctrine is an all or nothing proposition".

If I did not know that Hebrews 12:28 tells is that our service or worship must be acceptable then I may think that I can just worship God any old way I want to.

If I had not read Matthew 18:15-18 I may be tempted to handle disagreement incorrectly. The fruits of the Spirit do not produce those behaviors. Knowing God's word does.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Oh then God was wrong in putting it in His word to begin with

Really? You're going to have that attitude when I have just referenced the works of the flesh?

Perfect knowledge would work to produce perfect obedience...

Actually, it wouldn't. You are forgetting that humanity has a will that is bent toward sin.

...buuuuuttttt.....I did not say that.

Actually you did.

You have to know what to be obedient to in order to be obedient at all.Obedience does not just fall out of the sky.

You are obedient to a Person (Jesus) and what He has taught and teaches.

Further I do not know what you mean by "since doctrine is an all or nothing proposition"

It is a simple restatement of what you wrote, "All doctrine is essential - no doctrine is not essential." Logically, doctrine is all in one package according to what you have written. I don't think you believe that, but that's what you wrote.

If I did not know that Hebrews 12:28 tells is that our service or worship must be acceptable then I may think that I can just worship God any old way I want to

So those poor Christians who were suffering along without the book of Hebrews could not worship properly? Hardly. One can be obedient to Christ and be transformed in grace without a complete revelation, and especially, without complete comprehension.

If I had not read Matthew 18:15-18 I may be tempted to handle disagreement incorrectly.

So you would not be able to be obedient to Jesus in a transformative way? You couldn't live a life of faith since you didn't have those specific directions on handling disputes in the congregation?

The fruits of the Spirit do not produce those behaviors.

The fruit (karpos - noun, nominative, singular, masculine) IS this kind of character. The fruit of the Spirit is the transformation of character that comes by obedience to Christ as an expression of the Spirit working in a person.

Knowing God's word does.

Knowing and engaging with Jesus allows the process that produces the fruit. Scripture helps us know Jesus, but it not the same thing as knowing Jesus.