1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

What Is Total Depravity?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by tyndale1946, Sep 14, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    10,965
    Likes Received:
    2,380
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ever since I've been on the BB this question has come up many times and their have been many discussion on it... I know as other brethren on here know that it is the first point in the Calvinist TULIP doctrine... Very few have looked at it with a clear head and instead of understanding it, try to say what it doesn't mean... That has been my experience since I've been here... The following article states what it is and what it isn't and I personally feel the author has examined this doctrine with a discerning eye... I believe it is a biblical doctrine not Calvinistic and taught in scripture... Weather you believe it or not is no consequence to me and doesn't change my view of this doctrine one iota... Brother Glen:)

    Ryrie offers this definition of depravity.

    A proper definition of total depravity should not focus primarily on the question of sinfulness vs. goodness or ability vs. inability, but on fallen man’s relation to a holy God. Because of the effects of the fall, that original relationship of fellowship with God was broken and man’s entire nature was polluted. As a result no one can do anything, even good things, that can gain soteriological merit in God’s sight. Therefore, we may concisely define total depravity as the unmeritoriousness of man before God because of the corruption of original sin.

    The concept of total depravity does not mean (1) that depraved people cannot or do not perform actions that are good in either man’s or God’s sight. But no such action can gain favor with God for salvation. Neither does it mean (2) that fallen man has no conscience which judges between good and evil for him. But that conscience has been affected by the fall so that it cannot be a safe and reliable guide. Neither does it mean (3) that people indulge in every form of sin or in any sin to the greatest extent possible.

    Positively total depravity means that the corruption has extended to all aspects of man’s nature, to his entire being; and total depravity means that because of that corruption there is nothing man can do to merit saving favor with God.[1]


    [1] Elwell, Walter A, Editor, Evangelical Dictionary of Theology (Grand Rapids, Michigan, Baker Books, 1995) Article, “Total Depravity,” by C. C. Ryrie, 312-313.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Total depravity is the unbiblical idea that man in unable to respond to the gospel. However, scripture says that the power to salvation (Romans 1:16) is in the gospel and while man doesn't seek God before hearing the gospel it enables man to have faith in God (Romans 10:17). Man does not need an extra measure of grace (something other than the gospel) in order to have faith and believe in God.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, it isn't. Not even close. Read what tyndale1946 actually posted, not what you wish he would have posted.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,954
    Likes Received:
    425
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here's the reality--From Genesis 3 we see several consequences for "The Fall"

    the serpent is cursed
    the ground is cursed
    The woman has her labor pains increased
    Man has to labor for his food
    Man and Woman's Eyes have been opened to good and evil
    And as a result in the rift in their relationship--Husband will rule over wife and wife's desire will be to dominate (which can also mean something else) her husband. A consequence of sin.
    Enmity between the seed of the serpent and the woman (Proto-evangelium?)

    And worst of all, They were removed from the presence of God.

    What we do not see

    Man is cursed nor woman is cursed (You will not find where God cursed mankind.)

    In the words of John Walton (NIV Application Commentary)--Man's sperm has not be infected with sin.

    So, what can we deduce from this? I will say this, total depravity does not sound like God's Judgment on man.

    We have propensities to sin, that's for sure. And whoever sins will become a slave to sin--Christ said that.

    So what does it mean to be spiritually dead? Seemingly, one who is not cognizant of the presence of God and one who's spirit is devoid of any life towards God.

    And as Ephesians 2:1-9 proves--Yes, we were really that "Bad" and Yes, God is really that Good! Man has systematically attributed certain realities of fallen humanity into what we would describe as Total Depravity. A phrase made up by man. Does it have any merit? i don't know.
     
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have my own view on total depravity.

    Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    The human heart is not only deceitful but it is deceitful above all things and not only wicked but desperately wicked,

    It seems so deceitful and wicked that we are totally unaware that it is so and that is why the Spirit of God asks us a rhetorical question "who can know it"?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Oh well your post has totally disproved my well thought out, well reasoned and scripturally based position.:Rolleyes:Rolleyes:Rolleyes:Rolleyes

    (I one upped you on the eye roll so I win!) :Laugh
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I find your responses very funny. General Redemptionists complain and complain and complain that we Particular Redemptionists keep saying you don't understand Particular Redemption.

    Then you post something that proves you don't understand Particular Redemption. :D:D:D:D
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So then, which part of you, your body, your soul, or your spirit, is still sinlessly perfect and is perfectly holy so that it can approach God on its own merits without Christ?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  9. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ppl have the ability to respond to the gospel. Sadly, those in their fallen state will always say "no".

    Paul, on Mars Hill said God is not too far from any of us. That is His omnipresence. God is as close to His creation as they want Him to be.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  10. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    10,965
    Likes Received:
    2,380
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have always wondered that and how these brethren view original sin... If the whole body is not corrupted like Ryrie states, what do you need a Savior for?... Brother GlenConfused
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  11. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,643
    Likes Received:
    1,158
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I think you left out DEATH.

    [Rom 5:12 NASB] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

    DEATH feels like a curse (in my personal opinion).
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  12. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    10,965
    Likes Received:
    2,380
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In the words of John Walton (NIV Application Commentary)--Man's sperm has not be infected with sin.

    Then where did it come from out of thin air?... You will die unless Jesus Christ comes again and it is the original sin of Adam that caused that death... Brother Glen:)

    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    When the lost hear a sermon about the wicked, they seem to think its not about them, as they think of themselves as being not wicked. They see the wicked as those who are rapists, murderers, child molesters, terrorists such as ISIS, Hitler, Stalin, Vlad Dracula, &c. They have found a safe haven where, even though they are not as good as the Christians, they are surely not as bad as their neighbor who beats and cheats on his wife. Uhhhh, yes they are. But they will not believe it.

    Yet, all the lost are included in with the wicked. There are not lost, saved, and wicked ppl. There are lost ppl(which includes all as wicked) and the saved.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    10,965
    Likes Received:
    2,380
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Looks like you and I were thinking the same thing, thanks brother... I think scripture backs it up... Here it is!... Brother Glen:)

    Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  15. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,954
    Likes Received:
    425
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Did my post presume what you assert? That wasn't my intention.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  16. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,954
    Likes Received:
    425
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I did, not intemtionally. Death for sure. I just don't see where God cursed humanity. I'm not making any assertions. I was simply noting what Gen. 3 says.
     
  17. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Intemtionally? Looks like you've been hanging around Y1 lately. :D
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  18. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2,954
    Likes Received:
    425
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'm eating dimmer
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  19. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    FIFY. :D Just kidding, my Brother. Actually, that could be applied to me. A 15 watt bulb about to blow.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes.

    If you deny Total Depravity, which means the total man, body, soul, and spirit, then you deny all three parts of man are fallen and unholy. So your denial begs the question, which part of you is perfect and can approach God on the merit of your own holiness?

    So, allow me to ask you:

    Is your body perfectly holy or was it damaged by the fall?

    Is your soul perfectly holy or was it damaged by the fall?

    Is your spirit perfectly holy or was it damaged by the fall?

    Now please, no ducking and dodging. Each question can be answered with a simple "yes" or "no."
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...