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What is Your View of The Atonement By Jesus Christ?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Saved-By-Grace, Nov 28, 2017.

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  1. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Loaded language, and not what we would expect from someone who wished a serious discussion on this matter. I block people who I think are not capable or willing to engage in serious discussion, and you might not care one bit if I do, but if you post one more post like the above, I will consider you not ready for serious debate and do just that.
     
    #21 thatbrian, Nov 28, 2017
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  2. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    to authenticate the ministry of John the Baptist, and the baptism as being from God, and not man. As Jesus is always "without sin", the "of repentance" did not apply to Him. As John says, "behold, the Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world", which excluded Himself. Are you suggesting that Jesus was not sinless and that His baptism by John was in relation to His own sins? You are straining this reasoning beyond what the Bible tells us, for what purpose?
     
    #22 Saved-By-Grace, Nov 28, 2017
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  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Sure. I'll use this example - think of the Mosaic Law. Some believe that Jesus came to obey the Law and through this obedience merited the righteousness imputed us. But Jesus said that He came to fulfill the Law (that rather than His work pointing to the Law the Law pointed to Him).

    Now apply this idea of fulfilling to baptism. Was Jesus baptized in order to point to that baptism (that it signified repentance) or was Jesus' baptism itself pointing to Him? My answer is the latter. Jesus became man, took upon humanity upon Himself. Baptism points to the righteousness of Christ as the "last Adam", into which all believers are baptized.
     
    #23 JonC, Nov 28, 2017
  4. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    The Bible does teach that Jesus' Death was a "ἱλαστήριος", which carries the idea of "propitiation" of the wrath of God, which was turned away from us and placed on Jesus on the cross.
     
    #24 Saved-By-Grace, Nov 28, 2017
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I gave up serious discussions with Yesuah1 long ago. He just keeps repeating things without even trying to evidence his view. If you were to ask the question then I suspect you would receive a different answer.
     
    #25 JonC, Nov 28, 2017
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  6. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    :Unsure see #22
     
    #26 Saved-By-Grace, Nov 28, 2017
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  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Although it is debated whether or not "propitiation" is the correct word, I believe it is. Propitiation carries the idea of wrath averted. You may decide this is the wrath of God, just as Origen decided it was the wrath of Satan, but either way it is propitiation.

    I agree that this is the wrath of God against sin which we avoid. There are some who avoid this idea (for example, contemporary Mennonite theology), but I think they do this in error. This doesn't mean, of course, substitution. It means propitiation. The Christus Victor position, for example, believes that wrath (in terms of the wages of sin, even God's wrath upon sin) is averted.
     
    #27 JonC, Nov 28, 2017
  8. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    God is the One Who has been sinned against by the human race. It is His wrath that is on each person that does not accept Jesus Christ as their personal and only Saviour (Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. - John 3:36). Instead, the sins of the world have been placed upon Jesus Christ on the cross, which included this "wrath of God". When a sinner repents and come to Jesus for salvation, they are free from this "wrath" (Judgement) in Jesus, and enter into eternal life instead. "Jesus died FOR our sins". This is key to the correct understanding of the Atonement.
     
    #28 Saved-By-Grace, Nov 28, 2017
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  9. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Would you say that a perfectly honest man who engages in a charade like that was a perfectly honest man?
     
    #29 thatbrian, Nov 28, 2017
  10. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    Who are you referring to here?
     
    #30 Saved-By-Grace, Nov 28, 2017
  11. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    anyhow, its good night from England :Sleep
     
    #31 Saved-By-Grace, Nov 28, 2017
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree. This is the major flaw in the Mennonite Theology (Non-Violent Atonement) of men like Denny Weaver. Scripture does not give us the option of choosing passages and ignoring others in making our theories. Non-Violent Atonement ignores divine wrath, at least in any meaningful way.

    I like that you put in all caps “FOR”. This is something that is often misunderstood.
     
    #32 JonC, Nov 28, 2017
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  13. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    In your view of Christ's baptism, I'm referring to Christ. Your post seemed to suggest that He was pretending that He was a sinner in His baptism of repentance.
     
    #33 thatbrian, Nov 28, 2017
  14. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Your post is unclear to me. It sounds like a verbal shell game. Have you read much Brian McClaren or Rob Bell?
     
    #34 thatbrian, Nov 28, 2017
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. My favorites are John Piper and D.A. Carson. I haven't read much McClaren or Bell. Are they pastors you look to for instruction? If so, maybe they can explain to you what Christ being baptized to fulfill all righteousness means. It wasn't a shell game but Scripture itself. Sorry you couldn't understand my explanation.
     
    #35 JonC, Nov 28, 2017
  16. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    D.A. Carson? He doesn't hold your view of the atonement. Of that I am certain.

    Also, if you do quote scripture please reference the book, chapter, and verse. I did see any in your post.
     
    #36 thatbrian, Nov 28, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. He doesn't. Neither does Piper or Bell, or McClaren.

    Sometimes I provide reference for passages I quote. Sometimes I had rather see how others will react to Scripture apart from advertising they are God's words. So I will have to decline your request.
     
    #37 JonC, Nov 28, 2017
  18. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    What has this question got to do with the thread?
     
    #38 agedman, Nov 28, 2017
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  19. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    This doesn’t cut correctly with Scripture.

    There is a single requirement for salvation.

    The gift of God, belief.

    None other.

    Belief is not accepted as a gift, it is bestowed upon the unbeliever that they confess what they believe.

    God does not go about wringing His hands pleading and hoping that in some manner humankind might pay Him attention.
     
    #39 agedman, Nov 28, 2017
  20. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Again, what has this question got to do with the thread?
     
    #40 agedman, Nov 28, 2017
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