What kind of sins does a Pope confess?

[Carson Weber]

"Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ" (2 Cor 2:10)

Actually, a better translation of the phrase "in the presence of Christ" is "in the person of Christ." The Greek word in the passage is prosopon. The Latin word persona comes from this word. The Greek prefix pro translates to Latin as per. The Greek sopon becomes sona in Latin.

"Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the person of Christ" (2 Cor 2:10)

 

[Sherrie]

I also want to say Grant...it really isn't about any certain nuns or the Pope...The Pope may not have done any of these things.....it has to do with why he is allowed to control you. Why you would think he is infallible in making decsions about your personal worship with God.

And you have demonstrated through out your post, how you defend the infallable control that the Pope has on you, rather than standing on the Word of God.

Sherrie

 

[Sherrie]

thessalonian

I have copied your post and printed. I have a meeting in the morning so I have to sign off. I will pick up your post first thing in the morning.

Sherrie

 

[Carson Weber]

why he [i.e. the Pope] is allowed to control you

Why do you allow Paul to control you through his Epistles? Why do you allow Mark to control you with his Gospel? Why do you allow John to control you with his Letters? Why do you allow your Pastor to control you with his exhortations? Why do you allow your Study Bible to control you with its interpretations?

I just don't view sound teaching as "control". I view the Truth as the way to true liberation.

[ February 04, 2003, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
why he [i.e. the Pope] is allowed to control you

Why do you allow Paul to control you through his Epistles? Why do you allow Mark to control you with his Gospel? Why do you allow John to control you with his Letters? Why do you allow your Pastor to control you with his exhortations? Why do you allow your Study Bible to control you with its interpretations?

I just don't view sound teaching as "control". I view the Truth as the way to true liberation.

If you did not know the Gospels were inspired by God as were Paul's writings. Are you claiming that the pope has received additional revelations?

 

[Carson Weber]

If you did not know the Gospels were inspired by God as were Paul's writings. Are you claiming that the pope has received additional revelations?

Nope. No additional revelation, but an authority to administer the sacraments and teach the truth once and for all delivered unto the saints (Jude 1:3; Matthew 28).

You know, the Holy Spirit's work in the history of Christianity hasn't been limited to Inspiration. He was also given to the Apostles so that they could forgive sins in Christ's name (John 20:21-23), and he was given to the Apostles so that the Church could be protected from error and guided into all truth (John 16:13).

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi Bill,

You're always a breath of fresh air, brother.

Whew! I was begining to wonder if anyone was reading my messages.

I last said:

We recently had Scott Hahn down here in Pensacola (Gulf Breeze, FL) and I had the opportunity to hear him! You lucky guy! You get to get him as a professor in Stubenville!

Just had class with him today, in fact (Theological Foundations). He went overtime for 15 minutes today due to his enthusiasm. We discussed Banez, Suarez, Spinoza, Descartes, Hobbes, Locke, Molina, Aquinas, Augustine, Calvin, and about ten other dead men.

Oh Lord! I would love to be a bug on the wall, listening in on him!

Oops, had to edit and comment on those "dead men" who are "live in Christ." If that is being "dead," then I want some!

I posted a bit of today's class for you to listen to online. It's 700 kb and 6 minutes long in mp3 format.

He speaks of the difference between divisions of theology in Protestantism and Catholicism: how theology distinguishes in order to divide among Protestants and how theology distinguishes in order to unite among Catholics.

Click here:

http://www.boerne.com/temp/Hahn.mp3

Got it! Now, I gotta find out how I can save that to file! (My RealPlayer will not allow it, for some reason.)

How do you get your picture to show up in the column of the "handle/name"? I can see in in my profile, but I cannot get it to appear in the message.

You need to get a picture on the Internet somewhere that's less than 60 x 60 pixels. And then email the webmaster it's location on the internet (the URL), and the webmaster will set it up manually for ya bro.

I just replied to the administrator and sent in a picture of my ugly mug!

It should show up at any time now! Too bad we can't do that from the user point of view, as in other forums. That way, we can change the picture once in a while.

Anyoooooo, I hear a "good rumor" about you, which I won't mention here. I hope it is true, Carson!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Lord, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things that I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
enjoying one moment at a time;
accepting hardship as a pathway to peace;
taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it;
trusting that you will make all things right
if I surrender to Your will;
so that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with You forever in the next.
Amen.

 

[Sherrie]

You see the problem is you don't care what our answers are,
you reject them out of hand.

Thats not true, as you have answered no question. You have walked around the questions with me.

"What could the pope who has this superior connection to God, possibly do
that was a sin?

Hmmm. This is a big red herring for you Sherrie. I am going to ask you
to really concentrate on what I am about to say. We have the New Testament
scriptures. They are the word of God correct. You would say they are
infallible, I would say they are inerrant. There is a differnce but we can
get in to that later. But from your infallible perspective here is the
problem. The Apostle Peter has two books in that Bible. Are they the
infallible word of God? I think you would say yes. Problem is he was still a
sinner as we see in Galatians where he caters somewhat to the Jews and Paul
opposes him to his face. Are you willing to throw those two books out over
this? I hope not.

Sorry this has nothing to do with the question. We have all fallen short. Answer the question.

But then you have a bigger problem. You see the Apostle Paul has more
writings in the NT then any other of the sacred writers. Some of the
Protesstant favorites (which I hold dear to my heart) Romans and Ephesians
were written by him. There is a problem. If a man that is "in tune "with God
such that he writes and speaks infallibly cannot sin such as you say, then
what of this verse where Paul admits his sinfullness.

This has nothing to do with my question. We are all sinners. But we repent . and the old body dies, and Jesus lives in us and we in Him. His body is that church that all who are "in tune with" are made up of.

Romans 7:19
For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I
do not want.

Had you put the scripture before this one, and the scripture after this one, you would know he is saying he is revealing that there is a inner confllict between two natures. He is saying he he rejoices in his new nature, and his old nature is is captivated in the evil. But he rejoices in God.

Now you and I will both agree that there is no more scripture being written.
But is infallible speach taught in the Bible. Jesus says to his disciples:

Luke 10:16
"The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you
rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."

KJV: He that heareth you heareth me; and he who despiseth you despiseth me; despiseth him that sent me.

The Lord is talking about the rejection of these seventy men who were bringing the gospel to everyone. And is pronouncing judgement of Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum.

So apparently there was infallible speach going on also with these sinful
men. To say that the only things that were written were infallible is a
rejection of this verse. Now is this Charism possible today? I would say
yes. You would say no. But your arguement against it, that the Pope is a
sinner and so he cannot speak infallibly, I think if you are honest you will
have to agree, is flawed.

We do not agree. I am not arguing that the Pope is a sinner. Because he is. That is not the question.

And the sins he does....doesn't that make you wonder what, and if they were
those things that have brought you where you are today. What if he had
purposely been calling the wrong shots, and was repenting of them, Wouldn't
you be upset?

**** Let me let you in on a little secret sherrie. I am not tuned in to
radio free vatican every day. I do not wait for the Papal blessing on the
morning so that I can get out of bed and take a shower. I take my leadership
from the Pope and the Church but test it well against scripture and
tradition contrary to the ideas about me that have been pumped in to your
mind. And in truth there are few Papal statements that are considered
infallible. He is the final arbiter when there are disputes in the Church on
critical issues of faith and morals. I do consider his wisdom when I hear
him speak.

Funny you say that. Why is he here then. Why is he head of your Roman Empire? Why is he making decision for you if you do not even "tune in". So you are not listening to him. You have no idea, or a clue.


More to come!

Sherrie

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Sherrie,

Here is an account of what John Paul II said on February 2nd:

Warning of genetic manipulations that violate the dignity of human beings, John Paul II said that "you cannot trade with life."

Currently there "are situations in which the human person becomes an instrument for economic, political and scientific interests, especially when he is weak and does not have the strength to defend himself," the Pope said today.

He gave this warning before reciting the midday Angelus with the several thousand people gathered in St. Peter's Square. The Church in Italy was observing Pro-Life Day, under the theme "You Cannot Trade with Life."

The Holy Father observed that a "certain commercial logic, allied to modern technology, can at times take advantage of human desires that are good in themselves, such as that of becoming a mother or father, to the point of wanting a child at any cost."

"In reality," he continued, "human life can never become an object: from conception until natural death, the human being is the subject of inviolable rights, before which freedom must be restricted."

"Therefore, in these complex matters, it is indispensable that states adopt organic and clear laws, founded on solid ethical bases, to safeguard the inestimable good of human life," John Paul II said.

Lastly, the Pope recalled his message for the World Meeting of Families, which ended in Manila, Philippines, on Jan. 26, and whose theme was "The Christian Family: Good News for the Third Millennium."

"Dear Christian families, you are good news," the Pope said. "Sustained by the grace of the sacrament of marriage, face the different situations of life united and contribute to maintain the social fabric healthy."

God bless,

Carson

 

[Sherrie]

If someone makes moral decisions for you, why aren't you questioning them?
Yes, yes, I know they are decisions for a church. But you go to that church
and you live by those rules. Why?

No one makes moral decisions for me, but me. I answer for those things I do right and those I do wrong.

Once again, I have to say I don't understand the question. Every single
religious leader in the world is a sinner. That does not make all there
decisions bad.

But we are talking about the Pope. And you should be very concerned and question, about what path he is leading you down to. You should not take for so; just because he says he is the Pope. Scripture says to test those spirits

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as
those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with
grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

There is no indication that he thinks these leaders are all sinless. There
is much more scripture that I would like to go in to on this one but this
post is going to be far to long. Check out Ez 33 if you get a chance.

This verse is the same verse as verse 7. It is talking about spiritual leaders. Alot of Pastors and Ministers and the Pope may use this verse to make people listen to them annd do as they say. But in fact it is talking about spiritual leaders who are presenting Christ to you. Not running your Church and in control of your worship.

Don't you ever want to say what is this Pope guy thinking? Or do you really
think this guy is the next guy in line to be Christ?


Well, I have read some of his works and heard him speak. I know he has
alot better knowledge and understanding of Jesus Christ than anyone on this
board.

HAHAHA! There are a few I question about too.

Listen to this even; heres an eye opener for you, he has no connections to
those dead Apostles. Mary doesn't even hear him.

**** Once again Sherrie. I need scripture. Where does it say that those in
heaven do not hear those on earth. Scripture says we are "surrounded by a
cloud of witnesses". In Luke's Gospel Jesus tells the apostles that they
shall sit on thrones and judge nations in his kingdom (which in the book of
revalations, chapter 8 I believe we see 24 elders sitting on thrones. This
from my understanding is interpruted as the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of
Isreal and the 12 Apostles). It also says there is great joy in heaven
amongst the angels over one repentent sinner.

Luke 15:10
"In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of
God over one sinner who repents."


How do they know of his true heartfelt repentence unless they hear it? We
are told that we shall be like angels when we are in heaven so I see no
reason to think that we will not experience this joy also. Your not given me
alot of scripture Sherrie, Just regurgitating the same old lines I have
heard from Protestants a hundred times. Let your mind rome a bit. Go beyond
what you have been told about us Catholics and what we believe. I have added
you to my prayer list.

"If you have something to repent of; God gave His Son Jesus. Jesus died on
the cross. Jesus shed His blood for us. Jesus sent His Holy Spirit. Jesus
taught us how to pray to the Father. Jesus is our intercessor."

Amen! Well said Sherrie. Very Catholic too. Though certainly we can
interceed for eachother, would you not agree?

No; not Catholic. We must go to the Father. That is through Jesus Christ His Son. He is that intercessor. Even when we pray for others, we are petioning those needs of others to Jesus. Why would you want to go to someone else when you can go to Jesus.

Sherrie

 

[Sherrie]

Carson
I got to run and pick my grandson up from school. He is sick. So When I get back I will pick this up.

Sherrie

 

[Carson Weber]

I'm sorry to hear that. I'll say a short prayer for him.

 

[thessalonian]

Sherrie,


"Thats not true, as you have answered no question. You have walked around the questions with me."

Are you for real. I have taken your commentary/questions point by point that you made and quoted pertinent scriptures and cited Catholic theology that deals directly in refuting the issues that you raised. You apparently have not bothered to try and understand what I have written. The only answer you will accept from me is Gee sherrie, I guess your right we do worship Mary and Catholic doctrine is exactly how you have stated it. This statement you have made is simply a lie.

"Sorry this has nothing to do with the question. We have all fallen short. Answer the question. "


You know what. I will admit I didn't answer your question here. But you fail to acknowledge why. You asked.... "What could the pope who has this superior connection to God, possibly do
that was a sin?" . My point is that his sins are as immaterial to the issue as the "EVIL" that Paul did and yet he was still able to write scripture. I don't care what his sins are any more than I care if Paul got lonely out on the road. Your questoin and the implications of it are foolish.

"This has nothing to do with my question. We are all sinners. But we repent . and the old body dies, and Jesus lives in us and we in Him. His body is that church that all who are "in tune with" are made up of."

No it does have much to do with the question. The implicatoin of your question is that if this guy goes to conffession he cannot be infallible or trusted or we should somehow look askance at everything he says. I have proven from scripture that your questoin is an invalid one.

"Had you put the scripture before this one, and the scripture after this one, you would know he is saying he is revealing that there is a inner confllict between two natures. He is saying he he rejoices in his new nature, and his old nature is is captivated in the evil. But he rejoices in God."

What makes you think I didn't read the scripture before and after? Oh that's right, I am a Catholic we never do. Your point is immaterial. The fact is that he sins as the Pope does. What makes you think that the Pope does not rejoice in God. I can tell you from listening to many of his sermons that he does.

"The Lord is talking about the rejection of these seventy men who were bringing the gospel to everyone. And is pronouncing judgement of Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum."

Why do I bother. Yes I know dearie. The fact is that they were sent out and were given the charism of speaking infallibly for him. Thus anyone who rejected them rejected him. There is no reason to believe that this was an isolated one time gift for it says:

Matthew 10:19
"But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say.

So it is quite possible for men to speak for God in an infallible manner. And what of the thirty years it took for the Apostles to even start writing the scriptures? Does that mean they went around preaching error until they wrote it down? Your points are not well thought out Sherrie and easily refuted but you will say no because I said yes. You have to for to do otherwise will cause too much difficulty for your soul. To face truth will mean you will have to follow it even if it leads you in to the Catholic Church and you are not that committed to truth yet, that you are willing to go where he wants to lead you.

"Funny you say that. Why is he here then. Why is he head of your Roman Empire? Why is he making decision for you if you do not even "tune in". So you are not listening to him. You have no idea, or a clue."

"Yes sherrie, to you we are a bunch of ignorant zombies following after an evil man. He is the head of the Roman CAtholic Church (not the Roman Empire, where do you get that) because he is the successor of Peter. The head of the Church that Jesus Christ founded. I did not say I don't listen to him. I just say it wasn't 24-7. I read scripture daily and am quite allowed to contemplate it. What are some of the decisions the Pope has made lately.

He has changed the way some things are done in the Mass to increase our reverence for our Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

He has had a document put out regarding the stance that Catholics should take against those who support abortion.

He has been working on a document affirming the Churches age old stance against homosexuals in the priesthood that has been neglected by many.

Your statements on this board with regard to Catholicism have become so far fetched and ignorant at this point as to render them ridiculous. We are taught as Catholics to follow the commands and follow Christ. We are not controlled with every move we make by the Church as your posts imply. Your anti-catholic sterotypical comments are not born out of an attempt to understand. But to belittle. You have no idea or clue what the life of a Catholic is like or how we are taught or what we are taught and yet you have the audacity to say that I have "no idea or clue". This is exactly what I was talking about above when I said you spoke like an expert.

"No one makes moral decisions for me, but me. I answer for those things I do right and those I do wrong."

Where have we ever said that we are not responsible for and don't have to make moral decisions. The point is that the Chruch was left on this earth to properly form our consciences which have been corrupt by the fall of man.


"But we are talking about the Pope. And you should be very concerned and question, about what path he is leading you down to. You should not take for so; just because he says he is the Pope. Scripture says to test those spirits"

You bring this discussion around in circles Sherrie. God chooses the leaders. I do not. I do test what the Church says with scripture and have no problem doing it. The problem is that when I don't bow down to your scriptural exegesis, you cry "he's a zombie following that pope again".

"This verse is the same verse as verse 7. It is talking about spiritual leaders. Alot of Pastors and Ministers and the Pope may use this verse to make people listen to them annd do as they say. But in fact it is talking about spiritual leaders who are presenting Christ to you. Not running your Church and in control of your worship."

The Pope doesn't make me listen to him sherrie dear. I look at the whole of scripture and see that I am supposed to listen to him. He has never said in any of his writings or sermons that I have heard, you better listen to me or your going to hell. Your comments are so sterotyped with regard to us Catholics you are making me roll over in laughter.

"No; not Catholic. We must go to the Father. That is through Jesus Christ His Son. He is that intercessor. Even when we pray for others, we are petioning those needs of others to Jesus. Why would you want to go to someone else when you can go to Jesus."

Now it is my turn to say you did not answer me. You said that those in heaven cannot even hear us. I showed you cases where it is quite apparent that the angels do hear what is going on. I may have left it out but scripture says that the Apostles will sit on thrones and judge nations. How can they judge if they do not know what is going on. As for your last point, for the tenth time, is it okay to ask others to pray for us? You will of course avoid this question. Jesus is not the only intercessor. Why would you ask others to pray for you when you can go directly to Jesus. Why did Paul ask others for prayers many times when he could have just gone to Jesus. You have brought this arguement around in a circle also sherrie. But have not supported your contention that noone in heaven can hear us with scripture and have blatantly disregarded scripture in saying that no one else can interceed for us.

it is quite clear that you are unable to honestly assess what we believe and only choose to distort it.

[ February 04, 2003, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

[Sherrie]

You have no idea or clue what the life of a Catholic is like or how we are taught or what we are taught and yet you have the audacity to say that I have "no idea or clue". This is exactly what I was talking about above when I said you spoke like an expert.

"Life of a Catholic." Shouldn't it be Life as a Christian who attends a Catholic Church. God is not in your building. He is out there in the world. You again are showing me you worship Catholism rather than God himself.

I may attend a Baptist Church. I may join in fellowship with others, but I am a Christian. What is it like to walk Christ-like? That is what is important. What is your relationship with God? (Not you personaly but in general these are questions you ask yourself) Do you know Jesus Christ is your Savior? That His Holy Spirit dwells in you? If you died today, do you know you are going to Heaven?

We were all commissioned by our Lord to be disciples, and to go out and preach the Word. To give the Good News. To tell of that Hope.

We are not to take stock in other men because other men say so.

Now I have more than answered your questions. My questions to you are simple...Do you ever have doubts and wonder about the Pope? Do you ever wonder if he may be leading you astray?

Don't you think it odd that you trust this man, when you can do the same thing he does and go to the Lord yourself?

Sherrie

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Sherrie:
"Life of a Catholic." Shouldn't it be Life as a Christian who attends a Catholic Church. God is not in your building. He is out there in the world. You again are showing me you worship Catholism rather than God himself.

I may attend a Baptist Church. I may join in fellowship with others, but I am a Christian. What is it like to walk Christ-like?
Sherrie [/QB]

Interesting, Sherrie. Is it "Christ like" for you to judge another as you have here with your words, "you worship Catholism rather than God himself"?

Also, I notice that your profile says "Southern Baptist" not "Christian".

Are we to take this as an evidence that you "worship Southern Baptist(ism) rather than God"?

 

[Sherrie]

tryingtounderstand for you, as you were unable to read this the first time.

I may attend a Baptist Church. I may join in fellowship with others, but I am a Christian. What is it like to walk Christ-like? That is what is important. What is your relationship with God? (Not you personaly but in general these are questions you ask yourself) Do you know Jesus Christ is your Savior? That His Holy Spirit dwells in you? If you died today, do you know you are going to Heaven?

Sherrie

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Sherrie:
"Life of a Catholic." Shouldn't it be Life as a Christian who attends a Catholic Church. God is not in your building. He is out there in the world. You again are showing me you worship Catholism rather than God himself.

In that sentence, replace "Catholic" with "Baptist", and I know a BUNCH of people you could say that to.

 

[Sherrie]

That is so true Brian!

Sherrie

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Sherrie:
tryingtounderstand for you, as you were unable to read this the first time.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I may attend a Baptist Church. I may join in fellowship with others, but I am a Christian. What is it like to walk Christ-like? That is what is important. What is your relationship with God? (Not you personaly but in general these are questions you ask yourself) Do you know Jesus Christ is your Savior? That His Holy Spirit dwells in you? If you died today, do you know you are going to Heaven?

Sherrie </font>[/QUOTE]Sherrie, I am just pointing out to you that you are open to the same judgement that you have made of another. In your profile you identify yourself as "Southern Baptist" not as Christian.

Based on the standard which you are using to judge another, may we say that you worship Southern Baptistism rather than God?

You also ifnored my question as to whether your attitude and behavior here has been "Christ like".

I doubt that your double standard has gone unnoticed by many.

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
I would bet my left leg that there is a demon running J. Chick Publications.

http://net2.netacc.net/~mafg/jtchick/jtc02.html

Hummmmm, good question!

Here is a letter I wrote to persons who distributed one of his tracts in my hometown and made the mistake of giving their name/address on the back:

http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/p/wputnam3/Chick%20Tract.htm

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christ has no body now but yours;
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
Compassion on this world.
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good.
Yours are the hands with which
he blesses all the world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.

- St. Therese of Avila -