What purpose does election and predestination serve?

[J.D.]

If God looks down the corridor of time, and fore-sees who will be saved and who will not be saved, then what purpose does it serve for Him to "elect" that which he has no choice in and "predestine" that which he already knows is going to happen anyway? The Bible makes a big deal out of those things ya know - that election and predestination stuff.

 

[LeBuick]

If God looks down the corridor of time, and fore-sees who will be saved and who will not be saved, then what purpose does it serve for Him to "elect" that which he has no choice in and "predestine" that which he already knows is going to happen anyway? The Bible makes a big deal out of those things ya know - that election and predestination stuff.

Yes, it usually makes a big deal when referring to the Jews.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Yes, it usually makes a big deal when referring to the Jews.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I hardly think that Peter was writing only to the Christian Jews. He said that they inherited futile ways of their forefathers... 1 Peter 1:18, and the sins listed in 1 Peter 4:3 seem to be from a pagan background. I think the elect and chosen here are Christians from all backgrounds. The reference to Jews only as the elect can hardly be proven... and easily disproven.

 

[webdog]

If God looks down the corridor of time, and fore-sees who will be saved and who will not be saved, then what purpose does it serve for Him to "elect" that which he has no choice in and "predestine" that which he already knows is going to happen anyway? The Bible makes a big deal out of those things ya know - that election and predestination stuff.

The OP is faulty as it has God set only at a certain date in time. God is not bound by time. He is truly omnipresent (omnitemporal). This is the problem I have with both calvinism and arminianism. They both confine God to a certain exact point "before time" with the calvinist believing God strategically maps out all events (including who to save and not to save) and the arminian only seeing "down the corridor of time" as to what unfolds. God exists right this very moment in EVERY point of time, past, present and future. His omniscience and omnipresence coincide perfectly, not apart with His omipotence. Both C and A negate God's omnipotence.

 

[reformedbeliever]

The OP is faulty as it has God set only at a certain date in time. God is not bound by time. He is truly omnipresent (omnitemporal). This is the problem I have with both calvinism and arminianism. They both confine God to a certain exact point "before time" with the calvinist believing God strategically maps out all events (including who to save and not to save) and the arminian only seeing "down the corridor of time" as to what unfolds. God exists right this very moment in EVERY point of time, past, present and future. His omniscience and omnipresence coincide perfectly, not apart with His omipotence. Both C and A negate God's omnipotence.

I can agree with you about God's omniscience and omnipresence webdog. I do see God in all time and outside time. Time is a created thing for man and creation. God is Creator, not created, and therefore not bound by time.

Where we probably disagree is that mankind is bound by God's knowledge of him. It is not God's foresight, but God's forknowledge, that causes man to choose in a manner that is consistent with God's decreed will. God knows man first in His mind, and then man is bound by God's knowledge of him. Men never truly choose freely, in the sense of libertarian free will.

 

[webdog]

Where we probably disagree is that mankind is bound by God's knowledge of him. It is not God's foresight, but God's forknowledge, that causes man to choose in a manner that is consistent with God's decreed will.

I don't disagree that man is bound by God's foreknowledge of him. I just do not see where God existing at all points in time witnessing everything everywhere at once negates man's choice and responsibility. God knows every move I have made...am making...and will make, so I am bound by His foeknowledge. This is not negating the choices He has allowed, though.

 

[Jarthur001]

The OP is faulty as it has God set only at a certain date in time. God is not bound by time. He is truly omnipresent (omnitemporal). This is the problem I have with both calvinism and arminianism. They both confine God to a certain exact point "before time" with the calvinist believing God strategically maps out all events (including who to save and not to save) and the arminian only seeing "down the corridor of time" as to what unfolds. God exists right this very moment in EVERY point of time, past, present and future. His omniscience and omnipresence coincide perfectly, not apart with His omipotence. Both C and A negate God's omnipotence.

This was weak a year ago and weak each time you post it.

Omnipresence is the ability to be present in every place at any, and/or every, time.
This means God was in each time frame.

Again..when you say "God is not bound by time."..what you are talking about above is atemporal....not omnipresence.

BTW..Augustine was a "atemporal". I thought you would be happy to knew that.

The right view as I see it is... God in time is He is eternal.
"From everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God." (Psalm 90:2)

He is both in time and outside of time.

I have tried in the past to show where this does not work as you use it. Let me this time post Dr. Michael Williams who can say it better then I can. Also I cannot find his work, but Dr Ware should be read on this. I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr Ware along these lines. Dr Ware teaches at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary


Dr. Michael Williams

God is eternal. What we mean when we say that God is eternal is that He is infinite with respect to time. There are no limitations in terms of God's relationship to time. He is the sovereign Lord over time. In terms of scriptural support, there are Psalm 90, 102, and 93, Isaiah 40, 1 Timothy 1, and 2 Peter 3. It is probably the case that almost all theologians would in some sense want to affirm that God is eternal. By this, we mean that God has always existed, and that He will never come to an end. But when we ask what that means, that is when the theological arguments start. There are really two major views here of divine eternity, and on the face of it, these two views are mutually exclusive. We may call them 'atemporalism' and 'temporalism,' or we can call them 'atemporal eternality' and 'endless temporality.' Let us look at both of these very quickly. First of all, the atemporalist view is the one that has a very long history in the church. It was held by such ancient theologians as Athanasius, Augustine, Anselm, and Aquinas. This position holds that God is completely and utterly outside of time. Time in no sense applies to God. God holds all of His own existence in one timeless point. There is no sequence. There is no before and no after that applies to God. Further, He holds all of human history in one simultaneous glance. He knows the future and He knows the past exactly as He knows the present. They are essentially no different for Him. The atemporalist view holds that there are really two separate modes of existence: time and eternity. Man exists in time but God exists in eternity. This means that since God exists outside of time, since He exists in eternity, temporal statements are irrelevant to him.

The second view is the temporalist view. This position claims that time applies to God, just as it applies to us. There is sequence within God. There is before and after. He is aware of a sequence of events. He knows the present and He knows the future but He does not know the future in exactly the same way that He knows the present. God remembers the past and He anticipates the future. The real force or power for this position derives from the fact that timeless eternity is incoherent for human beings. We can talk about it but we cannot understand what we have said after we have said it. In fact, most of the arguments for the temporalist position are really arguments against atemporalism.

Let me give you some examples of some of these arguments. The temporalist will argue that atemporalism really makes it impossible for God to work in the world. The world we live in is time-bound, but if God is in eternity, He cannot work here. If temporal statements have no relationship to Him and for Him, He cannot work here. The claim that a timeless God works in time is by definition absurd. If God works in time, He must be in time. Second, the notion of a timeless person is also incoherent. A person, in order to be a person, must be able to remember, anticipate, reflect, deliberate, intend, and so forth. All these are time-bound events, but beyond that they are things that take time. There is a certain amount of duration with them. It takes time to remember something. It takes time to deliberate about something. These are actions that by their very nature are subject to temporal succession, duration, extension, and relationship. Third, Oscar Cullmann in his 1960 book Christ and Time argued that the idea of timelessness is not a biblical concept at all. It is rather an improper import from Greek philosophy. The Bible knows nothing of a time and eternity distinction at all. What the Bible actually articulates is a distinction between limited time, which is our time, and God's unlimited time. We might even call it our timeliness and God's timefulness. For example, when Scripture speaks of God as being eternal, it does not say timeless. What is translated as 'eternal' is in Greek a phrase which might better be translated 'into the ages of the ages' or sometimes it simply appears as 'the ages.' Our English word 'forever' might actually be a better choice. If I could use geometric terms, we are rays, for we have a beginning point and we go on forever. Then what is being suggested here is that God is a line. He has always existed and He will always exist. He is not a point.

We might take these two traditions and categorize them this way: the atemporalist position holds that time is irrelevant to God. The temporalist position holds that God is in time. The atemporalist response is, have you not just made God a creature of time? The temporalist position misses the important biblical fact that time is a creature of God. God is not a creature of time. Time is a created reality. As an essential feature of the created universe, time came into being along with matter at creation, and God existed before creation and therefore God is independent of time.

Can we resolve this? Philosophical and theological reflections on time have proven to be very complex, very convoluted creatures. Perhaps both of these positions are speaking some truth. Perhaps both of them are partly right. I think the atemporalist position is right in saying that God is the sovereign Lord over time, that He is not a constituent of the created order. But the temporalist position is also right in saying that God acts in time, and we temporally bound creatures always experience God in time. I think we can confess God is outside of time. That is all we can do. We cannot follow Him there. We cannot speak knowingly, rationally, or coherently about God outside of our space-time frame. So rather than locking God up in either a timeless eternity, which is really beyond our understanding, or making Him the creature of time, I think we can be better off to think of God as somehow beyond time yet working in it. What I suggest here is that God's relationship to time parallels His relationship to space. Time and space are usually thought of as the two fundamentally distinguishing characteristics of the universe, even at the level of physics. When we talked about transcendence, we did not seem to have any problem whatsoever in thinking about God as being different than we are yet also fully capable of coming close to us. God's relationship with space is that He is not in any sense spatial. He is not located in one point or another. He does not occupy any extensions spatially, but He can reveal Himself in space. I think the same thing is true regarding time. We should think of God's relationship to time on the same model. God is not located in time. He does not have temporal location. He is as much outside of time as He is outside of space, yet He can enter into temporality in the same way that He enters into space.

 

[skypair]

If God looks down the corridor of time, and fore-sees who will be saved and who will not be saved, then what purpose does it serve for Him to "elect" that which he has no choice in and "predestine" that which he already knows is going to happen anyway? The Bible makes a big deal out of those things ya know - that election and predestination stuff.

Oooh! You couch that in some prickly premises!

"Elect" doesn't mean "save," for instance. And "predestine" does not apply to the question of salvation individually nor does God predestine the lost individually (you were lost once yourself, no? )

Here's how these terms make sense together, JD. God IS omniscient -- He can see all time from Alpha to Omega (of creation) and beyond! In doing so, God did NOT choose/"elect" who would be saved. The "elect" are those whom He saw would BELIEVE. "Foreknow" in Rom 8:29 does NOT carry with it the notion of an act of God but of a saving response to God. God, BTW, had a choice as to how He would make salvation available and He did it by the "foolish" means known as "the preaching of the gospel" 1Cor 1:21!

So He then (Rom 8:29) predestines those who believe to the sanctification of Spirit constantly growing toward conformity to the image of His Son. THAT is what is predestined -- our sanctification, not our salvation.

So let's see if we have this straight -- "elect" are believers. "Election" is God's purpose for the elect after they are saved. "Predestination" = "election" (as in "calling and election sure" - you can't make your salvation "sure" but you can make your God's purpose for you "sure"/stronger/more effective). Has nothing to do with salvation -- only what God plans for His own "sheep" or "chosen."

skypair

 

[webdog]

This was weak a year ago and weak each time you post it.

So is your soterierology

Omnipresence is the ability to be present in every place at any, and/or every, time.
This means God was in each time frame.

As you were a year ago...wrong.
Omnipresence
OMNIPRES'ENCE, n. s as z. [L. omnis, and presens, present.]
Presence in every place at the same time; unbounded or universal presence; ubiquity. Omnipresence is an attribute peculiar to God.
Ubiquity
UBIQ'UITY, n. [L. ubique, every where.] Existence in all places or every where at the same time; omnipresence. The ubiquity of God is not disputed by those who admit his existence.

Is God omnipresent if He exists in the world today...but not yesterday? Tomorrow? If not, He can NOT be in "every place" or in "all places" at the same time. If time is nothing but measurement created for man, He is certainly omnipotent over it.

Again..when you say "God is not bound by time."..what you are talking about above is atemporal....not omnipresence.

I have never stated that God is atemporal, and that is NOT what I'm talking about. You now sound like Plato trying to explain his "forms". From wikipedia... Atemporal, that is, it does not exist within any time period. It did not start, there is no duration in time, and it will not end. It is not eternal. It exists outside of time. Forms are aspatial in that they have no spatial dimensions, and thus no orientation in space. They are non-physical, but they are not in the mind. Forms are extra-mental.

BTW..Augustine was a "atemporal". I thought you would be happy to knew that.

Well, since I was dealing with "omnitemporal" and not "atemporal"...it makes no difference

I have tried in the past to show where this does not work as you use it.

You can't even show me where my non cal view makes me sovereign in salvation...but you can show me where my view doesn't work? :laugh:
From Dr. Williams...

God is eternal. What we mean when we say that God is eternal is that He is infinite with respect to time. There are no limitations in terms of God's relationship to time.

He seems to see this, too. And this is NOT omnitemporalness...how?
Omni- is an English prefix meaning "all". It is derived from the Latin adjective omnis
temopral- of, pertaining to, or expressing time

God exists in ALL TIME. He exists above it...beside it...around it...after it..._____ (insert preposition here) it. True ubiquity.

 

[webdog]

What do you know, it's Wednesday and Thursday at some point in the world. To me, it's still Wednesday, but God exists in Cleveland, Oh and in Addis Ababa right this moment. Thursday is tomorrow for me and the today in Addis Ababa...but it is NOW to God. To those in Addis Ababa, Wednesday is yesterday to them, and today for me...but NOW to God. Time is ONLY measurement. God is omnipotent over any measurement

Addis AbabaThu 12:33 AM HalifaxWed 5:33 PM New DelhiThu 3:03 AMAdelaide *Thu 8:03 AMHanoiThu 4:33 AMNew OrleansWed 3:33 PMAdenThu 12:33 AMHarareWed 11:33 PMNew YorkWed 4:33 PMAlgiersWed 10:33 PMHavanaWed 4:33 PMOdesaWed 11:33 PMAmmanWed 11:33 PMHelsinkiWed 11:33 PMOsloWed 10:33 PMAmsterdamWed 10:33 PMHong KongThu 5:33 AMOttawaWed 4:33 PMAnadyrThu 9:33 AMHonoluluWed 11:33 AMParisWed 10:33 PMAnchorageWed 12:33 PMHoustonWed 3:33 PM...

 

[russell55]

Webdog,

I don't disagree necessarily with what you've said, but if what you've said is true, then what does the scriptural term "before the foundation of the world" mean? As I see it, if God is always present in all times, then that phrase has to mean something like "separately from the actual events in creation." If so, then that means that God's choices made "before the foundation of the world" can't be based on what he knows will happen (or is happening), but must be made without consideration of the events of creation. Those "before the foundation" choices, then, would have to be unconditional--not conditioned on any event or thing within time.

Unless, of course, you have a better explanation for what "before the foundation of the world means" given your model of God relationship to time.

 

[webdog]

then what does the scriptural term "before the foundation of the world" mean?

I believe it is a phrase used so finite beings bound by time can get a very slight glimpse of the awesome nature of God. Before is almost a "magical" phrase. Fortune tellers and prophets make their living forecasting the future, to which humans awe and are amazed at. There is nothing special about proclaiming and stating what's happening at present (news), or what has happened in the past (history), since everyone can do that. As I stated prior, "pro" means "above, ago, before, or after". Substitute each of those for "before", and you clearly get different meanings. Above? Either the decision was made on top of earth...or "above" time. Ago? The decision was made in the future. Before is self explanatory. After? The decision was made some point after the earth was made.

This is where I let Bible explain Bible. Christ was the Lamb slain "before" (pro) the foundation of the world. Was He crucified at a point before creation...above time...in the future (to those living in the past)...or after the world was formed? I believe the answer is "yes" The decision was eternal, something that can only happen with an omnitemporal God. So, in essence, "before" is a lot deeper meaning than both calvinism and arminianism give God credit for.

I picture a line drawn unattached within a circle. The line represents time beginning to end. The circle represents God. God being omnipresent fills the ENTIRE circle...line included...all points in time. Any decision by God is made within the circle, but not at a certain "point", meaning the decision is eternal.

 

[Martin]

I believe it is a phrase used so finite beings bound by time can get a very slight glimpse of the awesome nature of God. Before is almost a "magical" phrase.

==O gosh, here we go again :tonofbricks:

 

[J.D.]

To get back to my point, again I ask - Why did God "predestine" that which he already knew would happen anyway? Was there an answer in this thread? Did I miss it?

 

[whatever]

To get back to my point, again I ask - Why did God "predestine" that which he already knew would happen anyway? Was there an answer in this thread? Did I miss it?

No, there was no answer in this thread, and there is not likely to be one either.

 

[Jarthur001]

As you were a year ago...wrong.
Omnipresence
OMNIPRES'ENCE, n. s as z. [L. omnis, and presens, present.]
Presence in every place at the same time; unbounded or universal presence; ubiquity. Omnipresence is an attribute peculiar to God.
Ubiquity
UBIQ'UITY, n. [L. ubique, every where.] Existence in all places or every where at the same time; omnipresence. The ubiquity of God is not disputed by those who admit his existence.

I rest my case. Notice in every place at the same TIME!!! That is the point.
Notice also..Existence in all places or every where at the same TIME!!!!
God is IN time..when He works with man. Just as you have shown above.

Thank you for final seeing this.

Is God omnipresent if He exists in the world today...but not yesterday?

God is indeed omnipresent. Omnipresent means God is IN all time frames. The words you used...Today and yesterday...are time frames.

Tomorrow?

time frame

If not, He can NOT be in "every place" or in "all places" at the same time. If time is nothing but measurement created for man, He is certainly omnipotent over it.

i agree. Therefore I rest my case again.

I have never stated that God is atemporal, and that is NOT what I'm talking about. You now sound like Plato trying to explain his "forms". From wikipedia... Atemporal, that is, it does not exist within any time period. It did not start, there is no duration in time, and it will not end. It is not eternal. It exists outside of time. Forms are aspatial in that they have no spatial dimensions, and thus no orientation in space. They are non-physical, but they are not in the mind. Forms are extra-mental.

Webdog...

The OP is faulty as it has God set only at a certain date in time. God is not bound by time. He is truly omnipresent (omnitemporal). This is the problem I have with both calvinism and arminianism. They both confine God to a certain exact point "before time" with the calvinist believing God strategically maps out all events (including who to save and not to save) and the arminian only seeing "down the corridor of time" as to what unfolds. God exists right this very moment in EVERY point of time, past, present and future. His omniscience and omnipresence coincide perfectly, not apart with His omipotence. Both C and A negate God's omnipotence.

You say God is omipresent, which places God in all time frames but you use wording like.. God is timeless..which is atemporal, meaning Independent of time...when you desribe omipresents. Omnitemporal simply means "existing at all moments of time." If it is IN time...it is part of time.

God exists in ALL TIME. He exists above it...beside it...around it...after it..._____ (insert preposition here) it. True ubiquity.

Thanks for changing your views.
God does indeed work in time and is also outside. Both atemporalism and temporalism...as I have always said. As williams said....as Ware says.

Therefore when the Bible says foreknow...it means before. right?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. Psalms 139:16

This clearly points out that God has ordained our days before there ever were any. The starting point was God's knowledge.

 

[Jarthur001]

No, there was no answer in this thread, and there is not likely to be one either.

nope...they have no answer. Its just another part of the free-willism shell game-cover-up-strawman that is only a misdirection of the error found in their man centered doctrine they hold.

Hummm. I may write that one down and use it again.

 

[Jarthur001]

I believe it is a phrase used so finite beings bound by time can get a very slight glimpse of the awesome nature of God. Before is almost a "magical" phrase. Fortune tellers and prophets make their living forecasting the future, to which humans awe and are amazed at.

Let it be shown that freewillism is based on emotion and now magic.

and Fortune tellers and prophets are about the same.

 

[Jarthur001]

So, in essence, "before" is a lot deeper meaning than both calvinism and arminianism give God credit for.

Please help me to understand it.

Is is fair to say you were 100 years old, before you were 1 year old?

Were you a believer in Christ, before you heard of Christ?

Was your baby born before you were born?

Did you own your car before it was made?

I think before means sometime in the past. I do not think its deeper then this.

be·fore : a grammatical word indicating that a point in time, event, or situation precedes another in a sequence
1. prep in the presence of a person or body of people
2. prep indicating that one thing is preferable to or more important than another
3. prep located close to something but just ahead of it
4. prep stretching ahead of somebody
5. prep conj adv earlier than a particular date, time, or event
6. prep conj used to indicate a sequence of actions, one preceding the other and closely connected with it
7. adv on a previous occasion
8. conj used to indicate that somebody would prefer to do one thing rather than what they consider to be a worse thing

Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.

before...
ahead of
previous to
earlier than
prior to
sooner than


What do I not understand?