Featured What the Gospel is not

:BangHead: When are you all going to get it through your heads I'm not talking about pastors?? Great googly moogly!!!

These are issues inherent in every evangelistic church in the world and I object to your attempting to disparage the SBC churches without good cause. The problem exists everywhere.

From a sign outside a church in Northern Ireland: "If we'd been born where they were born and taught what they were taught, we would believe what they believe." Jesus saved his most outward displays of anger for the self-righteous. The Pharisees and Sadducees knew the law and boasted of sinless perfection. They dubbed themselves the celestial scorekeepers here on earth.

Jesus called them blind guides. Fools. Hypocrites. A brood of vipers. Whitewashed graves. Clean on the outside but dead within. But despite His criticism of the Pharisees and their political followers, recall what Jesus told His closest followers the first time He sent them out. He told them to heal, cure, and comfort, proclaiming God's name, restoration, repentance and truth along the way. And he added,

Matthew 10, NASB
4 "Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet."​

Note, He doesn't add, "And leavest thou a flaming bag of poo on their doorstep, and drapeth their olive trees in Charmin."

Jesus is telling us to let it go. Self-righteous outrage is not worth the trouble. When judgment comes, He will be the sword. Meanwhile, we should save the words of outrage, demands for justice and advocacy of systems of belief. They hold little value. He doesn't want our words nearly so much as He wants our lives. And He was sent by the Father to show us how to live them.

I pray that we transform our outer rage into both inward and outward action. First that we examine ourselves, park our anger in a corner, lose our unreasonable demands for justice in a fallen and unjust world, and lay aside our reliance on systems and expend that energy elsewhere.

Feed the hungry. Heal the sick. Aid the defenseless. Advocate for those on the margins. Most of all, preach the Gospel, a call to repentance spoken in love and truth ending with an invitation grounded in the cross and the tomb.

 

Convenient that you ignore the fact that response comes directly from your accusation that perhaps it is only an SBC problem. Meaning the definition is one you set, not me. Again ... :BangHead:

Just as you assume that because it isn't a problem in your church or others you're familiar with, it isn't a problem anywhere. That's a dicto simpliciter, a sweeping generalization fallacy.

Well, which is it? Either I have to go to all churches to prove my point, or one church doesn't prove my point. I don't even know what to call that, other than a circular argument. Which of course is another logical fallacy.

The way you've jumped to conclusions, ignored context, engaged in numerous logical fallacies and generally failed to make a point relative to the subject, I'd say some emotion is feeding your wordy, nebulous responses. Perhaps, if it isn't anger, you can tell me what it is?

Where did I say you did not?

And yet, if we see error, sin or false teaching in the church, the body of Christ, we are to do something about it, are we not? So how does that fit with your denial of responsibility to the body of Christ?

Really, DHK, your participation here has been eristic, with no other apparent purpose. I have to wonder why.

 

DHK and others have said they don't see the problem I have been attempting to describe. I say maybe we all need to look harder, because it is there.

A good example is Mark Hall's account of the public reaction to Casting Crown's song "Jesus, Friend of Sinners." He talks about it in the book he wrote to go with the group's latest album, "Thrive", in Chapter 26.

Hall said he received two criticisms. The lyrics that attracted the most flack were these:

Nobody knows what we're for
Only what we're against
When we judge the wounded.
What if we put down our signs,
Crossed over the lines
And loved like You did?

The first was, "I can't believe you would suggest that we support abortion." Good grief! First, Casting Crowns has recorded at least a half dozen pro-life songs. Second, he says that by the time the protestors at abortion clinics get there with signs and start screaming "You're killing your child!" they are several years too late. Hall suggests that they use the time they have to prepare their protests and make their signs to instead spend a half-hour every week at the church discipling young girls before they ever get to the point of needing to make the decision most of them don't want to make in the first place.

The problem isn't when the girls or women get to the abortion clinic. The problem is somewhere in their past, when Daddy left and Mommy stopped caring, or had to work two jobs to put food on the table and didn't have the time or energy to care, or did care but most of all, the little girl needed Daddy. Any of those scenarios leads to bad decisions.

The second complaint he got regarding the song was typical of what I sometimes see here, on this board: "I love your ministry and I love your music, but I just have a problem with this song because Jesus was not a friend of sinners. He was holy and He can have no fellowship with sin and cannot tolerate sin. We are all enemies of God until we are saved. God cannot have fellowship with sin."

To this Hall asks, "What is a friend?" Does he/she approve of everything a friend does? No. It is as I (me, thisnumber) has been saying all along, Jesus meets people where they are at, and He did so when He walked Earth in the flesh, too. Again as I've said, He told them the truth in love. That's all He did, and we are to do the same.

Jesus welcomed children into His presence, let them sit on His lap, or He'd crouch down to talk to them. They were sinners too, but He loved them and loved on them. He touched lepers, who were considered pariahs. He treated women with love, respect and dignity. He ate with tax collectors, the filth of the first century as far as the Jewish community -- and just about all others as well -- was concerned. He called the most hated man in town, Zacchaeus, down out of his tree perch and said, "Hey, come down. I want to eat lunch with you today." And what happened? This "wee little" tax collector confessed his sins and immediately stated publicly before his God that he would make everyone he had wronged whole again.

People thought they were giving Hall a theology lesson in their criticism of the song "Jesus, Friend of Sinners." What he heard -- what they were saying -- was that they are mad because the world is lost, and sins. Earlier in the chapter, Hall speaks of the "grace-vs.-law" reaction we have to sin. When it's ours, we expect grace. But when someone sins against us, we bring down the law on them, complete with charts and graphs and a grilling during which we expect a full confession and apology.

It's like picking our nose. How often do we do that every day? What do we do when we stop at a traffic signal and see someone else doing it? "Eww, that's disgusting!" Right? What makes us think we're invisible? We're just as vile and disgusting to others as they are to us. Yet we expect forgiveness without giving it ourselves? What does Jesus say about our not offering forgiveness?

Matthew 6, NASB
15 "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions." ​

Seems pretty definitive to me. People don't even have to know you forgive them. Forgiveness isn't for them, anyway. It is for us.

Please don't go off the deep end here as you have with the rest of the thread. I'm not accusing anyone of anything. All these statements are general in nature. Not everyone is guilty, and those who are, aren't guilty all the time. I'm as guilty as anyone, perhaps more so.

There is a problem, though, and I believe the reaction to Hall's song on the album "The Well" proves that. Maybe others here don't, and if you don't, just continue what you're doing. For me, I intend to try to be more aware of my reactions, to be loving, and to do the will of God.

 

First, to answer you question: No. we have much too much of the former and far, far too little of the latter.

Secondly, these examples you cite are irrelevant to the subject of this thread. They deal with sin within the body -- the body of Israel, to be sure, but nonetheless, within the body of those whom God has adopted as sons. Therefore it is an example that utterly fails to address the issue of our outrage on the one hand (more conservative believers) and a demand for justice on the other (among the liberal believers), as well as the "do-nothings" who talk about systems of belief rather than address the need of faith and repentance in the world. Those three things are what this thread is about.

I have shocking news for you. God's "moral outrage" is yet to be expressed and until such time as the trumpet sounds -- regardless of what event you believe that announces -- He will continue to love the sinner so much that He leaves as completely effective for the sinner today the atonement of Christ, which is the sacrifice of His only begotten Son on the cross as well as His burial and finally His resurrection from the tomb.

We have no right to express "outrage" at anything, given we were never outraged at our own sin before we laid it at the foot of the cross. We have no right to demand justice for anyone given such justice would necessarily result in their punishment, not the "free pass" such demands seek. And we have no right to yammer on about "systems" when it is not a system the sinner needs.

Yes, talk about sin. Talk about the sin we left at the cross. Talk about the love and grace we found at the cross. No one is going to be won to the cross only by hearing about their sin. They need to know about their sin, without doubt, but they need to be taken from the depths of hopelessness regarding that sin, to the heights of hope, love, grace, mercy and peace at the feet of Jesus.

You don't get there from here with "outrage." That vehicle takes you farther from love than almost any other emotion there is. The depth of the lack of understanding regarding that truth is stupefying.

 

More's the pity.

I admit to being unclear in my response in failing to address the New Testament passage. I intended to, but simply faltered in doing so. My apologies., but the fact is, Paul was dealing with believers as well -- sin within the body. So it also is a failure in addressing the issue at hand.

Elymas was hindering the preaching of the Gospel, and as such was clearly under the influence if not a follower of Satan, and therefore was a sign to Salamis -- the person to whom Paul was witnessing. He did not confront Salamis with a bludgeon of his sin, but silenced the evil spirit attempting to prevent his conversion.

Irrelevant. You don't present the Gospel to those who claim to be followers. You confront them in their sin per Matthew 18:15-17.

Acts 10:43 states nothing regarding preaching "God's moral outrage." Hebrews 4:2 follows Hebrews 3:12-17, which is written of the perils of unbelief, and references Israel's unfaithful in vv. 16-18. They never believed, but the audience of the writer of Hebrews were believers. This reference also fails.

Also irrelevant. Salvation is by faith alone, whether Old Testament or New.

Very, very, unadulteratedly wrong. It says God has "turned them over" to their own lusts, desires and sins. It doesn't say they are not redeemable. Again, epic fail.

I won't deal with the rest of your "reply." It is arrogant self-righteous nonsense that deliberately misreads what I've said, ignores previous comments I've made on the thread, and generally attempts to make you appear as my moral and exegetical superior when your words obviously prove you to be neither. You insist on being morally outraged and systematically inhibited. You're welcome to it.

 

Yes, but he can only come to that realization by the power of the Holy Spirit. Hypers like to believe they've got it figured out. In reality, they are over-simplifying a complex process that I don't believe can be understood this side of heaven.

Tony Miano, a retired L.A. County Deputy Sheriff, former chaplain to the department's road deputies, and founder of Ten-Four Ministries, a missionary organization serving the worldwide law enforcement community, says he is often asked, "How many people have you led to Christ?" His response: "All of them." He goes on to say he leads all that he speaks with to the foot of the cross, where he leaves them in the sovereign hands of Christ Jesus.

That's what I believe as well. We can just speak. We have no power to convince, that is in His perfect hands. We are just an instrument, and the reality is, He doesn't need us at all. One prisoner doing a lengthy sentence eagerly went to a chapel service because he knew the minister coming into the facility was going to pass out New Testaments -- and he couldn't afford cigarette papers from the commissary. He used the pages of the Bible. After several months, he had worked his way to John -- and stopped. The words caught his eye. He read the page -- then the back of it. Then the rest of the Gospel. And got down on his knees, convicted of his sin, cried out to God and asked to receive Christ.

We're just the delivery boy. Christ is the message. If we give it in love, He will do the rest. If we yammer, condemn and browbeat, they've turned us off before the Holy Spirit has a chance to do His work.

 

A comment borne of not actually reading the post. :BangHead:

It is unavoidable to let the "old man" live when presenting the Gospel?

It is unavoidable to avoid sinners?

It is unavoidable to attempt to restore the nation to the intent of the founding fathers when preaching the Gospel?

It is unavoidable to engage in mysticism in presenting the Gospel?

Please: Next time actually read the post.