1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured What Was Adam Pre-Fall

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by davidtaylorjr, Feb 10, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    4,517
    Likes Received:
    1,030
    Faith:
    Baptist
    • Like Like x 2
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,660
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Before the Fall, Adam was in a state of innocence. He was under the Covenant of Works. As long as Adam did not disobey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would remain in a state of innocence and not die.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,660
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In a past thread I explained it this way:

    "Pre-fall man was able to sin and able not to sin (Latin, posse non peccare, posse peccare). Before Adam disobeyed God, he was a true moral free agent. Sin has not yet infected the human race. If Adam had not sinned he would not have died. Scripture tells us that God told Adam that if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he would die (Genesis 2:16-17). Conversely, if Adam did not eat of the tree he would not die but would live. Theologians call this the Covenant of Works because life was contingent on Adam's obedience. We know that Adam did eat of the tree (Genesis 3:6) and thus incurred the curse of death (Genesis 3:19). So, prior to the Fall, Adam was able not to sin and able to sin."
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  4. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,882
    Likes Received:
    278
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Adam Summer?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  5. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    4,517
    Likes Received:
    1,030
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So was the result of the Fall a spiritual death?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  6. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,660
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Spiritual and physical death, although physical death did not occur immediately. Adam lived for hundreds of years before the curse finally took his life.

    Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

    All of Adam's posterity (save Jesus) would be born with a fallen nature and in a state of enmity with God. They would still have a spiritual nature, just like Adam, but that nature would be fallen--tainted. Paul would later describe it as being dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13). It was no coincidence that Paul used the Greek word for a corpse (nekros) in those passages. While alive physically the sinner is dead spiritually. The moment Adam disobeyed God, he lost his state of innocence and his spiritual nature fell. He became a slave to sin in an instant. It was not a slow and gradual decline. The only thing that was slow and gradual was his eventual physical death.

    P.S. Edited to correct grammar.
     
    #6 Reformed, Feb 10, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
  7. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    4,517
    Likes Received:
    1,030
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So you would argue that yes, Adam was spiritually alive prior to the fall?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,660
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes. Of course. Adam was created in the moral likeness of God (Genesis 1:26). In order for that to happen, Adam required more than just physical life. He also needed spiritual life. That is where the moral likeness of God comes into play.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  9. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 23, 2002
    Messages:
    19,703
    Likes Received:
    1,486
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Martin Luther said something along the lines of the idea that Eve was the most beautiful woman who ever lived because she was created perfect but she was the most sorrowful because she brought death to all humans. Adam was also perfect pre-fall so he was very strong & very intelligent. God gave instructions to Adam so Adam knew. I think Adam wrote a book that was the basis for Genesis.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    17,518
    Likes Received:
    744
    Faith:
    Baptist
    He was a alive and he was good. He was uncorrupted, and righteous. "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit." So there was no thought of disobedience. All of his working in the Garden, and his interactions with God and Eve were pure and undefiled. Not one thought of sin.

    He was good, but he was not incorruptible.

    He was corrupted by his interactions with the Serpent, and believed a lie, and a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    17,642
    Likes Received:
    1,886
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I believe that Adam was created flesh (with a human spirit). He was created "upright" (he was innocent of sin, having no knowledge of good and evil). I believe in the human spirit Adam sinned which demonstrated human nature in contrast to God.

    I believe "spiritual life" is the indwelling of the Spirit. In the OT the Spirit worked in the lives of men (to include Adam) but they did not have "spiritual life" as this life is "Christ in us", of the "imperishable seed", and dependent on Christ "became a life giving Spirit".

    I believe "spiritual death" is a state absent this indwelling of the Spirit which was accomplished in the work of Christ.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    6,456
    Likes Received:
    1,575
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thanks for re-starting this, David There is so much to learn from studying this.
    First of all, Adam was unique, both in his creation and in his fall (Romans 5:12-1). He was also the apex of all God's creation. All creation was 'good' but after the creation of man, God pronounced it 'very good.' Man is creation's crowning glory. So it was necessary that Adam be created sinless, but, of course, he was also defectable, otherwise the warning of Genesis 2:17 would not have been necessary. 'Truly, this only have I found: that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes' (Ecclesiastes 7:29).
    May I suggest that before the Fall, Adam was designated prophet, priest and king under God? The 'king' bit is easy: God gave Adam 'dominion over.......all the earth' (Genesis 1:26). Adam is told 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it.' This is an instruction that Adam would have had to pass on to his progeny; hence, he was a prophet, speaking the words that God gave him. Eden was a place where God walked; his presence, pre-Fall, was with the first couple. Where else is God's presence with man made manifest? In the Tabernacle (Exodus 40:34), the Temple (1 Kings 8:10-11), in the Church (Matthew 18:20), and in the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:3). So Eden was a garden temple, a place where man met with God. Therefore Adam was a priest.
    So was Adam spiritually alive? Beyond doubt.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  13. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,697
    Likes Received:
    2,205
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I think your definition needs tweaking. People nowadays without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are spiritually dead, yes. But what about in the old testament days?

    Abraham believed the Lord, and He credited it to him as righteousness. (Gen 15:6). Abraham's faith justified him. I would say he was spiritually alive. The Bible doesn't say he was indwelt with the Spirit. By your definition, absent this indwelling of the Spirit he is spiritually dead.

    Elijah called down fire from heaven after praying to God. I would say he was spiritually alive. The Bible doesn't say he was indwelt with the spirit. By your definition, absent this indwelling of the Spirit he is spiritually dead.

    I'm sure there are many more examples in the OT--Moses, Daniel, Nehemiah, etc.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,697
    Likes Received:
    2,205
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I think your definition needs tweaking. People nowadays without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are spiritually dead, yes. But what about in the old testament days?

    Abraham believed the Lord, and He credited it to him as righteousness. (Gen 15:6). Abraham's faith justified him. I would say he was spiritually alive. The Bible doesn't say he was indwelt with the spirit. By your definition, absent this indwelling of the Spirit he is spiritually dead.

    Elijah called down fire from heaven after praying to God. I would say he was spiritually alive. The Bible doesn't say he was indwelt with the spirit. By your definition, absent this indwelling of the Spirit he is spiritually dead.

    I'm sure there are many more examples in the OT--Moses, Daniel, Nehemiah, etc.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    17,538
    Likes Received:
    1,687
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, it clearly was. Jesus as the last Adam restores and elevates the elect believers above angels now
    Hebrews2:
    6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
     
  16. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,697
    Likes Received:
    2,205
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A sinless, mortal man.

    Since he was sinless he could be in the presence of God.

    I believe he was mortal because God put the Tree of Life in the garden, whereby if Adam ate of it, he (presumably) would not die. Remember God warned if Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he would "surely die". That phrase "surely die" seems to reinforce the possibility that Adam could die, but if he sinned and ate the forbidden fruit he would guarantee it, he would surely die. Once he ate of the fruit, certain death entered the world.

    I'm open to the idea that Adam was spiritually alive before the Fall, but how could he then be spiritually dead? I can't get around the idea that he was once in communion with God but then he did something and he was no longer in communion with God. In effect, he lost his salvation. How can this be explained?

    Jesus said he would never leave us nor forsake us and no man can pluck you out of my hand.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    17,538
    Likes Received:
    1,687
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are correct,sir!

    Psalm51:
    6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
     
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    17,538
    Likes Received:
    1,687
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So was Adam spiritually alive? Beyond doubt. Thanks for this solid post.
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    17,538
    Likes Received:
    1,687
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Think of it as if he was on probation....when they speak of a Covenant of works that is what they are getting at. He was not confirmed in Holiness or original righteousness. He did not have the promises of grace as clearly as we have.
     
  20. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 23, 2002
    Messages:
    19,703
    Likes Received:
    1,486
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am probably wrong but I think that when God sacrificed animals to make fur garments for Adam and Eve, God covered their sin with a sacrifice.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...