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Featured What was/is God doing

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Apr 22, 2024.

  1. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Being, before the foundation of the world it was preordained 1 peter 1:19,20, that, from the foundation of the world rev 13:8, the Christ as of a Lamb without spot and without blemish would be slain, [suffer the death] then God must have planed to create Adam in a manner that would be subject to bringing, the death, the result of, the sin, into the world.

    Yes or No?

    WHY?

    Before the foundation of the world, why would God need sin and death to come into the world?

    What is man [singular and the son of man [singular] that thou visited him.

    IMHO God was using the flesh and blood man, created in God's image, to deal with something that preexisted the man. From Eps 6:12 Some, spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;

    I believe, for the purpose of God, Adam was created to being the death through the sin into the world. For the purpose of destroying the devil and his works.
     
  2. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    God has declared the end from the beginning. Nothing was left undone. Nothing was decreed after an event. To say otherwise would be to deny the omniscience of God. Not only did God declare the end from the beginning, He also promised to bring it to pass and to do it. "Do it" is not an act of permission but commission.

    Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    God created all things, sin and righteousness for Himself. This is the purpose of all creation: to bring glory to God. God created the wicked to be damned. (emphasis mine - kh)

    Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    This passage clearly teaches they were ordained for condemnation. God planned or decreed that certain men would be damned for eternity.

    Romans 9:22-23 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: {23} And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    There are some who have correctly analyzed the use of the passive voice for the word "fitted" and the active voice for the word "prepared." A faulty analysis of the "passive" voice is made when associating the "passiveness" with God. The truth that the phrase is conveying is diametrically opposed to that imagination. The passive voice is used to describe the passiveness of the vessel of destruction. That is, the vessel of destruction is passively having to receive the decree and hardening of God upon their hearts. Otherwise, vv. 18,19 would not make any sense in the context:

    Romans 9:18-19 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. {19} Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

    The whole context deals with the discussion of the will of God to harden some and save others. If it were some sort of discourse concerning some imaginary passive attribute of God then the questions of the earthly opponent would be completely out of place. The whole reason the earthly opponent responds with hatred toward God is that they are confronted with the inevitable reality that an omnipotent, omniscient God has just declared that He hardens whom He wills. "Hardeneth" is a present tense verb in the active voice. Literally the passage reads, "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he is continually hardening." There is so much force behind this statement for the supralapsarian position that only the angriest mentality would find ways to ignore the clear implication of the verse.

    - excerpt from Supralapsarianism and Its Practical Implications - Ward Fenley
     
    #2 KenH, Apr 22, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2024
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  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:2
    And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. Gen 1:6,7

    It appears to me the earth was standing in the waters and out of the waters. Yes or No?

    For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 2 Peter 3:5
    Does that describe what is said in Gen 1:2,6,7?

    What does the Greek word, kosmos, imply?
    Scripture4all translates, system.
    Wescott and Hort translates configuration.

    Does this imply order and or arranged in order?

    2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

    Had, some, spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; caused the world that then was to perish and become asn described in Gen 1:2,6,7? Why did the devil and his works need to be destroyed? Is darkness that God named night one of the works of the devil? You know that darkness God spoke for Light to shine out of? Consider Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night [darkness] there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
     
  4. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 45:6-7 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
     
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  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    God created all things to glorify Himself.

    They way He chose to do this was to allow sin and death to come into His creation?

    Why?

    Without sin and death coming into the world, His chosen would not know and understand He loves them so much He is willing to suffer and die for them.

    This makes our love for God even greater, and God is glorified all the more.

    peace to you
     
  6. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Genesis 1:2

    Where was the devil when the earth was in this state? Did the devil exist when the earth was in this state?

    Does it even matter?

    When the earth was in the above state, why was the Son of God going to be manifested? What was the Son of God going to be manifest as?

    Was the devil moot to the creation of Adam?
     
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  7. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    @percho This entire message is excellent, but for this particular thread subject, you might benefit from listening from the 5:20 mark to the 14:25 mark.

     
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  8. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You are misstating the reality of Calvinism. The Calvinist chosen would worship God no matter what as it was determined they would do so. For the Calvinist the life and death of Christ has zero real impact. According to Calvinism one is saved or damned for eternity because you were saved or damned from before the foundation of the world.

    For the Calvinist the cross in reality is just for show and nothing more.
     
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Before the foundation of the world is only in three passages.

    John 17:24, Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

    Ephesians 1:4, According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: . . .

    1 Peter 1:20, Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    The Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God.
     
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I wasn’t talking about Calvinism. Since I’m not a “Calvinist”, I don’t presume to speak for them.

    Maybe you should try that.

    BTW, I do not need a lecture on theology from someone who believes many are saved having never heard the gospel.

    peace to you
     
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  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    @canadyjd,
    Brother I am not a Calvinist either.
     
  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Ok. I didn’t mention you or respond to you, so….

    OK. Neither of us are “Calvinists”

    However, I do consider myself to be “reformed”, for the most part.

    Thanks for sharing

    peace to you
     
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  14. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    As far as many being saved sans the gospel, you will need to explain the OT saints and even now those in closed countries are turning to God. But since they do not fit your philosophy and God is doing something outside your theological construct your have to deny His being sovereign in saving those that respond to the various means He uses to draw people to Himself. I really do not understand why any Christian would want to restrict what God can do, but you seem quite content in doing just that.

    BTW perhaps you should start opening your eyes to what God really is doing with His creation.

    For those that hold to the DoG / TULIP philosophy the death and resurrection of Christ in reality has no impact as to whether one is saved or not. If one is chosen to be saved prior to creation then is there any reason that they need to trust in Christ, was there any possibility that they would not be saved? Unless your theology is wrong and one actually has to trust in God for their salvation.

    If you were pre-chosen how does your later saying you trust in God being more glory to Him? Was it just a conditional salvation that would become reality when one freely trusted in God? I mean we do see conditional salvation all through the bible.

    And whether you love Him or not, whether it's more or less makes no difference in reality.

    So your argument that "Without sin and death coming into the world, His chosen would not know and understand He loves them so much He is willing to suffer and die for them." really has no merit as with your follow up comment "This makes our love for God even greater, and God is glorified all the more."
     
  15. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I would spend about 4 hours going through this statement, line by line, demonstrating how you are completely ignorant of what Reformed theology teaches, every bit supported by multiple passages of scripture in context, and why your beliefs make a mockery of our Lord Jesus Christ and His sacrifice… IF I believed for a minute you would actually read it and attempt to understand it.

    As it is, I know it’s a waste of cyber space to try.

    I’d be happy to debate you if you could accurately state the reformed position without your delusional misunderstandings regurgitating all over the thread.

    And again, I don’t need a lecture in theology from someone so ignorant of scripture they believe many are saved having never heard the gospel.

    peace to you
     
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  16. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    The fact that you can not even admit that you hold to calvinist philosophy is telling. I have seen enough of the so called proof texts used by "reformed calvinists" to see that it is only by a misuse of scripture that you hope to support your view.

    Strange how you will deny the grace and love of God so as to defend your view. You say God is sovereign then limit God to your philosophy. Why a Christian would want to do that is rather odd but that is the position that you have taken.

    I doubt that you have even taken that time to see what the foundation of your philosophy is? When you have done that come back and tell me why anyone should actually follow that view.

    I will continue to pray that God will open your eyes to the truth.
     
  17. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    war in heaven
    neither was their place found any more in heaven
    was cast out
    he was cast out into the earth


    When did the above take place?

    From Hebrews 2:14 ἵνα διὰ τοῦ θανάτου καταργήσῃ τὸν τὸ κράτος ἔχοντα τοῦ θανάτου τοῦτ᾽ ἔστιν τὸν διάβολον
    That through the death he might destroy the one the power having of the death, this is the devil

    When did the devil obtain the power of the death?

    What is man?

    Was he made some less than the angels because the devil had the power of the death? Adam that is?

    What was and what is, God doing?

    Does Gen 1:3-31 have anything to do with the devil being on the earth, having been cast out of heaven?

    How was God going to destroy the devil and his works?


    BTW Have no idea what this has to do with John Calvin.
     
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    [———
     
    #18 kyredneck, Apr 24, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2024
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Excellent articulation. I have no stomach for his Pelaganism or his continual misrepresentations, thus I mostly ignore him. Best not to feed a troll.
     
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  20. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I’ll debate you when you can accurately state the reformed position without regurgitating your false claims.

    I consistently pray God Holy Spirit enlighten me to the truth of God’s word.

    Since you have repeatedly stated many are saved having never heard the gospel, making a mockery of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice, in favor of your man made philosophy,….

    …. I suggest you focus your prayers on yourself, asking God for the understanding that will lead to repentance of your false philosophy.

    peace to you
     
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