What's the faith in "faith only"?

Greetings

Absolutely not. Baptism has nothing to do with justification. It is part of salvation via sanctification. Justification + sanctification = salvation. However, justification is primal and enables sanctification. Sanctification without justificaiton is simply good works for the person going to hell.

The CoC is seen as a works religion because you place sanctification ahead of justification. For you, salvation is a conditional process. Initial justification is by faith but needs to be supplemented by obedience and faithfulness. ONly at an ill-defined level of perfection can final justification be awarded. You have no security because you are never sure if you are good enough.

This is terribly wrong. Justification is primal - not sanctification. Justification determines destiny - not rewards. Sanctification determines rewards - not destiny.

The unseen Spirit baptism is part of justification and is eternal (2 Cor 4:18).

The visible water baptism is temporal and part of sanctification.

The difference is critical. What can I do to help you see this?
Lloyd

 

Therein lies the problem brother. 1) no one really does their best. 2) our best faithfulness adds nothing to our justification but rather adds only to our sanctification.

God Bless!

 

Greetings

You, like bmerr, do not understand biblical salvation. Salvation is justification plus sanctification.

The gift of eternal life is God's activity. He planned it, prepared for it, executed it flawlessly, and now offers it freely to the world.

The gift of eternal life is passive to us. Humans cannot be God. We cannot plan, prepare for, earn, or work for God's free gift. However, we can accept it by faith. This is a passive affair. We receive justification. You have made a rather significant linguistics error in your understanding of the word "passive." You must understand my use of the word in the above context - not your slothful mental image.

Friend, you have only verified my main theological plank used against the error of water baptism regeneration. It is curious that here you seem to understand the distinctiveness of justification and sanctification. How is it that you go hot and cold in the same posting?

Justification is by faith in Jesus. Sanctification is by faithfulness and obedience. Water baptism is usually one of the first acts of obedience.

Lloyd

 

Greetings

Great question! This is is combination of justification and sanctification. Servant means they have been justified by faith. faithfulness implies various degrees of "good" works.

Recall my post on depravity. Even these "good" works are tainted with human corruption. Justification would be impossible were it not based solely on Christ's righteousness. But sanctification is entirely possible and rewarded even with the taint of depravity. I can't go further - I'm not God. However, 1 Cor 3:11-15 as yet shows that total bad works still saves the individual.

You ask penetrating question. They all lead to justification!

Lloyd

 

Hey bmerr

I'm in a written debate in a Yahoo group. My time has been devoted to responding against the proposition that water baptism is required for salvation.

Here, you have yet delivered another fine question.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary gives the following:
The Lord was teaching that forgiveness ought to be in direct proportion to the amount forgiven. The first servant had been forgiven all, and he in turn should have forgiven all. A child of God has had all his sins forgiven by faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore when someone sins against him, he ought to be willing to forgive . . . from the heart no matter how many times the act occurs.

I know you are interested in OSAS which was not addressed. Context rules! Let's see what it says.

Saved Peter is asking the question about forgiveness. So we must not push the metaphor beyond what it was originally given to answer.

The question is about forgiveness not security. The Bible has lots of examples of saved believers who were punished or killed for their rebellion. Moses is the best of the examples. One "little" rebellion and - WHAMO! - death in the wilderness. Yet he appeared beside Jesus in the transfiguration. We know he is saved.

I note that the unfaithful servant was only "given to the tormentors" Matt 18:34 - not that he had a part with unbelievers. Isn't it amazing how one's theological bias modifies scripture!

Great question.
Lloyd

 

Quoiting Lloyd (ascund), "The unseen Spirit baptism is part of justification and is eternal (2 Cor 4:18).
The visible water baptism is temporal and part of sanctification.
The difference is critical. What can I do to help you see this?
Lloyd

Thanks, Lloyd, for the clarity!
I (personally) go one further, and cannot find a single instance of water baptism in the NT that wasn't an act of 'Apostolic' authority. Water-baptism (as far as I can see) stopped when the Apostolic generation had died out. The 'Spirit-baptism' is the baptism of Jesus Christ - it is the gift of grace whereby a sinner is born anew into the Kingdom of heaved SPIRITUALLY - that is, "by faith" - the 100% work and gift of the Holy Spirit.
So by the buy, I have somewhere on the Boad said once that Popedom boasts apostolic succession because it has retained water-baptism!

 

Quoting Steaver, " our best faithfulness adds nothing to our justification but rather adds only to our sanctification."
Amen, Steaver; yet again I (personally - no war-mongering) go one further - I say, our best faithfulness adds nothing to our justification but rather adds only to our DAMNATION! (Remember Luther referring to Isaiah and the filthy rags-righteousness?)

 

Hey bmerr

Luke's Great Commission is a bit generic and we can't unlock the temp0ral sequences or inner relationships. But we can with Matthews!!

Matt 28:19 shows baptism (baptizw: a participle) is dependent upon discipleship (matheteuw: the main verb). Thus, remission of sins comes when one is made a disciple – not by water baptism.

Make disciple = justification (Spirit baptism).
Baptism = water baptism

2 Cor 4:18 shows that the unseen is eternal (Spirit baptism) while the seen is merely temporal (I can see, feel and drink water).

So Matthew's Great Commission has 'em both! Oh the joys of justification + sanctification.

So much harmony!
Lloyd

 

Good point. Consider the following:
The new birth is “of the Spirit” (John 3:5,7). The Spirit quickens and gives eternal life (John 6:63). The law of the Spirit of life frees (Rom 8:2). The lack of the Spirit denies eternal life (Rom 8:9). The Spirit is life (Rom 8:10). The Spirit baptizes believers into Christ (1 Cor 12:13). The Spirit seals and provides the earnest of eternal life (2 Cor 1:22, 5:5; Eph 1:13-14). The Spirit gives life (2 Cor 3:6). Believers receive the Spirit by faith – not by works (Gal 3:2,14). The body without the Spirit is dead (Jam 2:26).

Hence, the only true baptism is the Spirit's baptism. Water baptism is nothing but a rite that marks the truth of the Spirit's eternal baptism. THERE IS ONLY ONE BAPTISM! Any move to uplift fickle water baptism above the Spirit's baptism creates a conflict with scripture. Similarly, any move to uplift fickle human obedience above Christ's obedience denies the Cross (unwittingly).


I continue posting Bible showing how the responses of a human-centered self-righteous system are in direct contrast to a Christ-centered system. However, as far as debates go, the side you are rooting for always wins irrespective of truth. (I think he needs ICU help).

Lloyd

 

John 3:5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

You ignore the “born of water” as if it were not even in the text. Being born of water is a requirement to entering the kingdom of God. Just what is the Kingdom? Matt 16:18-19, the word “Church” and “Kingdom” are used interchangeably.

This same Peter preached the gospel to the Jews in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, in Acts 2. When we read Acts 2:38, 41, and 47 we can see how Jesus statement in John 3:5 is exactly what happened in Acts 2.

Agree

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I Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

This verse tells us we are baptized into one body. The body is the church (Eph 1:22-23, Col 1:18). Therefore we are baptized into one Church. This applies to Jews or Greeks, slaves or free. Who could this exclude? How did this take place on the day of Pentecost, for those Jews?

Peter and the other apostles spoke “as the Spirit gave them utterance” – Acts 2:4. What instruction did the Spirit give to the believing Jews in Acts 2:37? To repent and be baptized, for the remission of sins.

Acts 2:41, Those who received the word, (What word? The words uttered by the Spirit, through Peter) were baptized and added. Added to what? The Church, as verse 47 tells us.

See how John 3:5 again fits perfectly with I Cor 12:13 and Acts 2.

 

Hey mman

You analysis of John 3:5 is flawed by failure to examine CONTEXT - again.

In John 3, Jesus makes three attempts to teach that the new birth is “from above” (anwthen) (John 3:3,7). Thus, the new birth is not associated with human activity. In 3:5 Jesus introduces the contrast of born of water versus born of Spirit. In 3:6, Jesus further defines the contrast. Physical life is contrasted with eternal life. Physical life comes through the waters of birth; spiritual life comes by God’s Spirit! Verse 7 supplies the bookend to verse 5 showing that the new birth is spiritual from above and not from human activity below. You ignore the contrast and redefine the water of physical birth as water baptism.

Your error is further amplified by looking at the three illustrations Jesus uses. The second illustration talks of the new birth as illustrated by the wind. The wind is equated with the Spirit. No water here!

Jesus’ third illustration is the brazen serpent. When the murmuring Hebrews were disciplined with snakes, God had Moses build a brazen serpent on a pole. For salvation, all the people needed to do was LOOK at the brazen serpent. Jesus equates this look with “whosoever believeth” has everlasting life! Here is but one of many verses that show faith without baptism results in eternal life.

These three illustrations show justification is an EVENT from above. Your wayward appeal to John 3:5 is really a support for God’s activity in justification and a denial of conditional human-centered process justification. Context shows that the contrast is physical versus spiritual.

CONTEXT! When will you learn to use context?
Lloyd

 

You make the same mistake Nicodemus made. He thought Jesus was talking about physical birth also, but Jesus corrected him.

To imply that Jesus makes physical birth a condition of entering the kingdom defies even common sense.

See, I can show where John 3:5, Acts 2, and Mark 16:16 all harmonize, while using the simple language and logical conclusion of each text in its context, yet you cannot.

Take the brass serpent example. What action was required for them not to die (be healed)? They had to look upon the serpent.

No doubt, there were a large number of people, in the camp of hundreds of thousands and maybe millions of people. It would take some effort to see that serpent, no doubt some travel for most who were bitten.

What virtue is there in a brass snake? Can we use brass snakes to heal snakebite today? Of course not. Did the effort required to see the snake earn deliverance from the snake bite? No. God was the healer. He used the brass snake as a means to provide that healing. What about the person who was bitten, believed with all his heart what God said about the brass snake, yet remained in his tent? Could his belief alone protect him from the poision of the snake? Was belief alone enough or was some action required? Why would anyone think that looking on a brass snake could cure them? God said so and they believed Him, or in other words, by faith. It makes no sense by human reasoning, it was done by faith.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved - Mark 16:16. Is belief alone enough? Born of water. What virtue is there in water? Can water wash away sins? Can looking on a brass snake cure snakebite? No, the power is in God. Does baptism "earn" anything? No more than looking on a brass snake "earned" a cure. The power is in God, not the water or the snake. Why would anyone think that baptism washes away our sins? God said so, and we believe him, or in other words by faith. It makes no sense to my human reasoning, it is done by faith.

That is how we are born from above. God does it when we are "born of the water and the Spirit".

Paul said, "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:26-27.

God's childern are born. Born from above. They have been baptized INTO Christ. Some try to take the water out of John 3:5 and Gal 3:27.

You cannot take the water out of Acts 8:35-36, "Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"

Preaching Jesus includes instructions for water baptism. Philip preached this same Jesus that said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" and also said, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

 

hey bmerr

You miss John 3:3. The new birth is "from above." Born again is better translated as born from above. In verse 6 Jesus supplies the contrast between physical and spiritual.

Jesus didn't confirm that a person had to be an adult. He confirmed that one had to be physically born. Even Nicodemus understood the birth as a new born babe for he wondered how one could get back into the womb.

The next illustration continues the physical / Spiritual contrast. Here, the wind blows. You can't see it but you can see the result. This shows that the new birth is unseen (2 Cor 4:18) and eternal. The illustration isn't about God the Spirit. It is about the saving process not being seen. If you can see a baptism, then it doesn't save.

Jesus third illustration is the brazen serpent. Only the LOOK of faith was required for salvation. Jesus says that this is what is required from "whosoever believes." Nothing beyond a decision to trust is Jesus is required for the new birth - from above - that cannot be seen - that depends only and solely upon the LOOk of faith.

All three say the same thing. None of the three refers to water baptism.

Lloyd