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When did Heaven and Earth pass Away

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Logos1, Jul 25, 2011.

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  1. lastday

    lastday New Member

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    End of Time

    JesusFan,
    Your remark regarding the identity of the Saints in question
    must address the last ones who "must be killed before God
    can avenge their blood". Rev.6:9-11. Those who appear in
    Rev.7:9-15 have "come out of the great tribulation" and so
    must include Saints killed until the "end of the age". If we
    split over whether these Saints refer only to Pre-Trib martyrs,
    we add fuel to the argument of Logos that the End comes before
    the last martyrs have been killed.
    Mel at www.lastday.net
     
    #21 lastday, Jul 26, 2011
  2. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Thank you lastday. I've added your link for a later look.

    - Peace
     
    #22 preacher4truth, Jul 26, 2011
  3. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    A careful reading of the bible will show that the bible doesn't speak of the end of time it speaks about the "end times" which of course was the end of the Jewish Mosiac Law or Old Covenant.

    “Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

    Why thank you Mel!
     
    #23 Logos1, Jul 27, 2011
  4. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Amen Hank!

    You are quite right HanK! We have never been more on the same page than we are here.

    They are still here and obviously the cosmos has not passed away so when Christ said ....Verily I say unto you, until heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle shall pass from the law until all be fulfilled".

    It is self-evident that he wasn't talking about a literal passing away of the heavens and earth this was indeed representation of the Old Covenant passing away.

    Other wise we would not have Christ to call on to save us now and would have to live under the Mosiac law.
     
    #24 Logos1, Jul 27, 2011
  5. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Preterism give you harmony between the OT and NT

    The trouble many people have understanding verses such as heaven and earth passing away is that allow it to lose its connection to the Old Testament and then it is easy to take it out of context which leads to thinking the literal cosmos will be destroyed.

    Isaiah 24 provides good context for Matthew 5. Verse 5 of Isaiah 24 gives the reason when it states they have broken the everlasting covenant—obviously a reference to the Jewish Old Covenant. At various place Isaiah states…

    V 1: The lord is stripping the earth bare and making it desolate

    V 3: The earth will be totally plundered

    V 4: The World wastes away and withers

    V 6: The earth’s inhabitants have been burned and only a few survive (reader will please not if the cosmos was actually destroyed no one would survive—obviously a reference to 70 AD when Jerusalem was burned and relatively few of the Jewish inhabitants survived)

    V 10: The city of Chaos is shattered

    V 12: Only desolation remains in the city

    V 18: The foundations of the earth are shaken

    V 19: The earth is completely devastated, the earth is split open, the earth is violently shaken

    V 20: Earth falls never to rise again (reader note if it never rises again the New Jerusalem can’t be a new literal earth—obviously the Old Covenant never rises again)

    V 21: on that day the Lord will punish kings of earth below

    V 22: They will be gathered in a pit…after many days they will be punished (reference to Roman army laying siege to Jerusalem and after 5 months destroying it)

    V 23: Moon will be put to shame and earth disgraced because the Lord will reign as King in Jerusalem


    After reading Isaiah 24 with an honest heart and seeking only truth where ever that takes you it is impossible to think the literal earth will be destroyed it is obvious that earth here represents the Old Covenant. If earth was going to be literally destroyed then there could be no Jerusalem for the Lord to reign in. The Jerusalem here is the New Jerusalem of Revelation which obviously represents the New Covenant.

    The more you read this the more it is obvious that end time prophecy in the bible speaks not of the end of time, but the 70 AD last days destruction of Jerusalem to end the old covenant and usher in the New Covenant.

    This is consistent with all the time statements of the bible stating Christ would return soon and all would be fulfilled in this generation.

    There is not one single verse in the NT which states Christ will be coming back thousands of years in the future or will come back in some future generation.

    When you read the OT and NT from a Preterist view point they harmonize and reinforce each other like no other perspective can accomplish. It brings the bible to life he way no other perspective can.
     
    #25 Logos1, Jul 28, 2011
  6. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    All has not been fulfilled, Christ has not returned bodily and visibly.
    Neither does righteousness rule over this planet (watch the news) but on the contrary sin and death still reign and we still need undertakers and cemetaries to bury the dead. Neither do we have immortal resurrected bodies. Neither does the lion lie down with the lamb, etc, etc, etc...

    HankD
     
    #26 HankD, Jul 28, 2011
  7. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    The LORD (A) said unto my Lord,(B) Sit thou at my (C) right hand, until I (D) make thine (E) enemies thy (F) footstool.



    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then (at his coming) the end, when he (G) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he (H) shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he (I) must reign, till he (J) hath put all enemies under his (K) feet.


    Please insert for each letter above in ( ) Either the Father, Son, or David.

    Here are mine.
    A. Father
    B. Son
    C. Father
    D. Father
    E. Son
    F. Son
    G. Son
    H. Father
    I. Father
    J. Father
    K. Son

    OR

    The Father said unto the Son sit thou at the Father's right hand until the Father makes the Son's enemies the Son's footstool.
    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then (at his coming) the end, when the Son shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when the Father shall have put down all rule and authority and power. For the Father must reign, till the Father has put all enemies under the Son's feet.


    Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


    Did that happen in AD 70?
     
    #27 percho, Jul 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2011
  8. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

    Why? Why did the Christ have to be raised from the dead?

    For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

    Why? Why do they not exist anymore if Christ has not been raised?

    This is what God; Father,Son,Holy Spirit told the only created being at the time of his creation.

    and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
    This is what the serpent; Satan told woman who was taken from the one created.
    And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,

    You are or have an immortal soul.

    Adam who God told dying thou dost die was the figure of him to come. That is the Word that became flesh, Jesus, the Christ of whom this is said: Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    Christ had to be raised from the dead in order to have life and was raised with an incorruptible body.

    What about the prophet David on this faithful day fifty days after the resurrection of the Christ?

    Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

    His soul is still in hell (Hades the realm of the dead) and he did see corruption. He is still with that son that he went to in death along with his fathers.

    The word does not teach dying and going somewhere it teaches being resurrected to life in the kingdom of God or damnation the second death.

    Was David resurrected in 70 AD and those alive changed incorruptible?

    Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Resurrected into the kingdom of God.

    Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation (the kingdom of God) be born at once? for as soon as Zion (the church) travailed, she brought forth her children.
     
    #28 percho, Jul 28, 2011
  9. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    I think what you meant to quote is:

    The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them." -Isaiah 11:6

    A lamb and lion lying down together is like most of the rest of dispensationalism—it is more old wives story than what is actually in the bible. For instance, there is no mention of an anti-christ ruling the world in the bible.

    Nevertheless this is highly symbolic, poetic language meant to describe a golden era in general not specific actions. It is poetic license.

    The Golden era is Christianity—the new covenant.

    Remember Christ said his kingdom comes without observation (Luke 17:20)—there is no literal kingdom on earth that will ever be set up.

    There is no bible scripture that actually says Christ will return in the body. This is just “reading in” to scripture the desired meaning.

    He did return in a visible way when you use the proper Greek meaning for visible—it is not see with the eye, but with the mind—people knew the Roman army was a manifestation of the Lord punishing the Jews for their transgressions as he came back in judgment on them. Horao means “perceive” “see with the mind” not “see with the eye.”

    Christ is the center of the new covenant and He is the righteousness spoken of. He rules at this time. Christ has abolished sin death and reconciled us back into the presence of God.

    Remember the bible story is not a story about man’s history it’s a story about man being reconciled back into the company of God.

    We don’t have to distort the words of the bible to wait for a future coming of the Lord that is at odds with scripture we can now declare our victory in Christ. He has conquered death and brought us back into God’s company just as he promised and the bible foretold.
     
    #29 Logos1, Jul 30, 2011
  10. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Percho
    "Did that happen in AD 70?"

    Absolutely everything was fulfilled by 70 AD. If Christ said all would be fulfilled in the generation he was talking to that is good enough for me.

    If we don't think it was fulfilled the problem is not with Christ's words it's with our understanding. We just need to adjust our thinking not his meaning.

    Mark 13:30
    Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
     
    #30 Logos1, Jul 30, 2011
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Acts 1
    9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
    10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
    12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​


    Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
    5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
    6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
    7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
    8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
    9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.​

    HankD​
     
    #31 HankD, Jul 30, 2011
  12. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
     
    #32 preacher4truth, Jul 30, 2011
  13. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Not quite.

    Thus saith Titus Flavius Josephus.
     
    #33 preacher4truth, Jul 30, 2011
  14. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Somebody please wake me up for I did not know we had it so good.

    And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

    Wake up President Obama also.
     
    #34 percho, Jul 30, 2011
  15. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Hello Hank,

    Hope you had a good weekend, but enough pleasantries and down to business.

    Of course these verses don’t say that Christ is returning in a bodily form.

    There are a lot of problems to overcome to get there from these verses.

    The acts verses—if you say he is coming back as he left then he went out of their sight in verse 9 and so could come back that way and not be seen in bodily form just come in judgment of Jerusalem in the form of the Roman army.

    But I, of course, don’t think these verses have anything to do with his return. The “coming in” in the same way is his coming into heaven. That is why the two angels needed to verify that him going into heaven because they can’t see him after he disappears from sight.

    In Zechariah these prophecies can’t be discussing the future since the only Jewish state that the bible would have any need to address is that which is in a covenant relationship with God and after 70 AD the old covenant is over and all things have to be fulfilled. Any Jewish state after 70AD is not longer unique and special to God since their covenant has been done away with.

    The foot touching down on the Mount of Olives is like the passage in Micah when Judah was warned of divine judgment from Babylon.

    Micah 1:3-5
    For behold, the Lord will go forth from his place. And he will descend, and he will trample over the high places of the earth.
    And the mountains will be consumed under him, and the valleys will be torn apart, like wax before the face of fire, and like waters that rush swiftly downward.
    All this is for the wickedness of Jacob and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the wickedness of Jacob? Is it not Samaria? And what is the loftiness of Judah? Is it not Jerusalem?

    Did God actually trample the high places with a literal foot touching down—no and everyone knows it, but for some odd reason try to literalize the same type of passage in Zechariah.

    Although I can believe that the 10th Legion that dug trenches on the Mt. of Olives could be a literal fulfillment of those Zechariah passages.
     
    #35 Logos1, Aug 1, 2011
  16. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Don't you think it is about time you got with the program.

    Easy for you to take going to heaven when you die for granted since it has been that way since Christ's return in 70 AD.

    If a preacher tells the family of a departed one that he has gone to heaven he is taking a preterist position. He is actually saying that Christ prepared the place for us and returned at some point (make that 70AD) and now the dead can go to heaven when they die.

    If Christ's hasn't already returned then the dead have to still go to sheol and wait there for his return.
     
    #36 Logos1, Aug 1, 2011
  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I had a good weekend logos and I hope the same for you brother.

    These quotes are pointing to His return which, in the opinion of most (from the early church to this very day), has not yet happened.

    Every once and a while I post them to let others who may be young in the faith and/or not well versed in the Second Coming see the futurist point of view along with your rebuttal.

    Everyone can decide for themselves.

    HankD
     
    #37 HankD, Aug 1, 2011
  18. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Which is what I believe the word of God teaches.

    Let's look at a couple of verses.

    Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    From whence was the Christ resurrected per this verse KJV hell Literal Hades
    and how concerning his flesh, incorruptible. How did the Christ himself or his soul come about being in Hades? By death.

    Is this part of this verse also concerning the resurrection? Col. 1:18 who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.

    Matt. 16:18 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    The way into hell (Hades) shall not prevail over the church. Prevail implies they have found themselves there but will not be held there. Where? Hades.
    How did they get there? Through the gate of death.

    Will the church be conformed to the image of the firstborn from the dead Son of God when they are resurrected from the dead (Hades, the realm of the dead)? Will he the Son Jesus then be called the firstborn of many brethren, that is so born?
     
    #38 percho, Aug 1, 2011
  19. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    We will be like Him, alive and with a resurrected body:

    Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    HankD​
     
    #39 HankD, Aug 1, 2011
  20. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Amen Hank it's called the resurrection of life
     
    #40 percho, Aug 1, 2011
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