When was Satan's Fall From Grace?

[Paleouss]

Greetings to you brother. Grace and Peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.

My personal position on the matter is that the fall of Lucifer occurred somewhere between Gen 1:31 and 3:1. There is nothing which determines the span of time that had elapsed. Perhaps it was a few days or could have even been several years.

By "fall of Lucifer" do mean something like his heart turning due to pride or do you also mean the outward act of rebellion. Maybe like a revolt of angels. In other words, was the tempting of Eve his first outward act of defiance?

The "Serpent" was evidently one of the creatures of which Satan either took "Possession" of or perhaps he manifest himself in the form of a serpent?

Or it is figurative language of an actual event. But either way, your point is the same.

It also seems quite clear that Satan had already fallen when he appeared before Adam and Eve tempting them.

In what way is it "quite clear"?

For Example, one might say that Satan had a high status of being stationed (if you will) in the Garden of Eden (Eze 28:13). That would mean Satan may have come into contact with Adam and Eve frequently. One day, one might speculate, pride was conceived in Satan...and he acted. That wouldn't take much time before he deception act (but it concedes it was prior).

Even in the age to come when all things are made new, the serpent will continue to slither on the ground and eat dust (Isa 65:25). It is therefore understood that it was the actual creature that was cursed.

Or if it was figurative language then it would be understood that Satan would continue to be fallen from grace. Crawling on the belly and eating dust is a ancient Hebrew poetic idiom for total defeat, absolute subjugation, and deep disgrace.

Thank you for your time.

Peace to you brother.

 

[Paleouss]

According to explicit biblical statements, God did curse the ground for Adam's sake after the Fall, but the text of Genesis 3 does not say anywhere that God cursed Adam and Eve:

Greetings SMA. Peace to you brother.

Ok, let's travel down that distinction. Now how does that impact our analysis of the fall of Satan?


Peace

 

[Paleouss]

The curse on Adam and Eve is given before they sinned.

Greetings Ben. Grace and peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is this a "law" or is this a "curse"?

Peace to you

 

[Ascetic X]

I quoted verses that tells us that judgement is based on the deeds done in the body, the works of the flesh. If one casts down the imagination before it becomes a deed then a man is not guilty of carrying the deed to it's end, which is sin.

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body

It is strange how desperately you cling to the idea that thoughts are not deeds, so you will not be judged for having sinful thoughts. Thoughts are mental deeds and wicked thoughts are sins.

Jesus clearly stated that thinking about adultery is the same sin as doing adultery.

Matthew 5:28

But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.



You were given these verses about how wicked thoughts are sins, but you dismiss them.

Proverbs 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.

Proverbs 24:9 The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men.

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Matthew 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

James 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

Moreover, we need forgiveness for our evil thoughts and not just our evil deeds:

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I quoted verses that tells us that judgement is based on the deeds done in the body, the works of the flesh. If one casts down the imagination before it becomes a deed then a man is not guilty of carrying the deed to it's end, which is sin.

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body

Your understanding is not right because it does not account for all that the Bible explicitly says. Jesus explicitly said that a man who lusts after a woman in his heart commits adultery with her in his heart (Matt. 5:28).

Moreover, Jesus explicitly spoke of thoughts being evil:

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

Jesus thus taught that evil thoughts are sin just as murder, adultery, fornication, theft, bearing false witness, and blasphemy are sin.

When everything that Scripture says is accounted for, it is clear that evil thoughts are sin.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

Greetings to you brother. Grace and Peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.

By "fall of Lucifer" do mean something like his heart turning due to pride or do you also mean the outward act of rebellion. Maybe like a revolt of angels. In other words, was the tempting of Eve his first outward act of defiance?

Isaiah 14 does say "because thou hast said in thine heart..." so we have this. God is omniscient so he was aware before anything was said or done. He did conceive it in his heart before he acted on it. Lucifer had already fallen prior to his act of sedition getting his angels to join in on the plan. The question is "When did God take action and pronounce his judgment?" Another member here has suggested that this was in Genesis 3:14-15 after Adam's fall and what the serpent said to entice Eve was quite similar to what is written in Isa 14 ("I will be like the most high..."). There is nothing which mandates that God would act in judgment upon conception of the deed right?

Or it is figurative language of an actual event. But either way, your point is the same.

In what way is it "quite clear"?

He was acting in an overtly deceitful and sinful manner is he not?

For Example, one might say that Satan had a high status of being stationed (if you will) in the Garden of Eden (Eze 28:13). That would mean Satan may have come into contact with Adam and Eve frequently. One day, one might speculate, pride was conceived in Satan...and he acted. That wouldn't take much time before he deception act (but it concedes it was prior).

This is an interesting take and similar to what the "gap theorists" have proposed that Lucifer was ruler of a "Pre-Adamite" Earth so it could be that he inhabited Eden right along with Adam and Eve? We have very little in scripture so we may only speculate here but such a scenario lends one to become familiar and comfortable in the presence of this creature (serpent)? This would explain why Adam and Eve were so susceptible to this temptation!

Or if it was figurative language then it would be understood that Satan would continue to be fallen from grace. Crawling on the belly and eating dust is a ancient Hebrew poetic idiom for total defeat, absolute subjugation, and deep disgrace.

Satan is referred to as a "serpent" as well as a "dragon." Satan is referred to as being these creatures but is every scriptural mention of dragons or serpents to be automatically construed as being the Devil? Snakes are reptillian creatures and our experience with them today are quite different from the one that Adam and Eve had encountered. The one obvious difference is that snakes today cannot speak nor do they exhibit cognizance or intelligence! We do not know how this serpent looked prior to God's act of judgment. We only know that this act of judgment resulted in the serpent slithering around on its belly and this is characteristic of every snake we find in nature. Isaiah 65:25 speaks of creatures that will be familiar to us in the age to come when the curse is completly removed but the serpent (seems to be the actual creature, not The Serpent who seduced Adam and Eve). Perhaps this is for our example and to the glory of God and serves as a reminder of what God has redeemed us from?

Thank you for your time.

Peace to you brother.

No problem! Thank you for the thought-provoking questions!

 

[Ben1445]

Greetings Ben. Grace and peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is this a "law" or is this a "curse"?

Peace to you

Deut. 11:26-28

Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known

You tell me. It the law that they not eat the fruit or is the law that they die.

If their death is the law, it doesn’t matter if they eat the fruit.
But if death is the consequence or curse of breaking the law, then death is the curse.

Does it not sound strange to you to say that God made a law that Adam and Eve would die?

I am quite sure that the law is do not eat and the consequence is death, and not the other way around.