When was the jailer regenerated (born-again)?

You must have trouble reading. You asked "how do I know." I didn't say that I knew. I only stated that it didn't say something so we cannot assume that he desired that. And I didn't make that argument about the rich ruler. Thanks for not reading what I said or thanks for purposefully changing what I said. (I'll let you pick which fallacy you want to be guilt of.)

No, Galatians doesn't say one has faith before he is regenerate, it says that faith is the channel(by, through..by means of) of which salvation happens. It all happens at the same time. You are making the same mistake that some Calvinist make, just the other way around.

 

What is the difference in the two?

And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, (physically hearing) but seeing no man.

And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him (Did not understand what he said)that spake to me.

Paul heard Stephen's sermon yet held the coats of the men who stoned him to death, and was on the road to Damascus with the same heart. Why could he now hear and understand Jesus when those with him could not.
Jesus called him, Jesus did not call them. Just because a sermon is preached does not mean all that hear it physically are being called by God.

I agree with you SBM however I would not call this regeneration as in birth but begettal as in conceived. We have been begotten of the Father God awaiting our birth. I also understand you nor any others think this is correct.

Which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Unto a lively hope is that confidence that comes with the Holy Spirit, which we received through the risen Jesus who received it from the Father to shed on us, that we like him, the firstborn from the dead, will be resurrected from the dead as his brethren. That is born again.

If we be begotten of the Father God, how is it that Jesus is called the only begotten of the Father? Is it not because the virgin Mary was conceived of the Father by the Holy Spirit which was with him until the day he gave it up unto the hands of the Father. By which he the Word made flesh, Jesus was raised from the dead.
From Gal. 1:1 by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;
and from Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you

Show me from scripture why this is not true.

 

Yes, and in each case they were born of God when they received Christ and believed on his name, that is at the same time as salvation.

You quoted John 1:13, "born of God." Now take the passage in its context. Look at verse 12: "As many as received him to them gave he power (or authority) to become the sons of God even to them that believe on his name.
--There is the context. Those that received him; those that believed on his name--they are the ones that were born again mentioned in verse 13.

 

Yes and no. Saying you believe or not is simply a statement. This does not mean a person who does not believe CANNOT believe.

This is true, but you cannot be "of God" unless you are a believer.

You conveniently left out verses 11 and 12 which say Jesus came unto his own, and his own "received" him not. This shows synergy. Verse 12 says to those who received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that "believe" on his name. So, as I have been trying to show you, you do not belong to God, you are not "of God" until you first believe.

Verse 13 is explaining that the method of salvation is all of God. Man will always try to save himself through good works. The gospel, that Jesus would come and die for our sins and be raised again, and that we can be saved by faith in Christ is 100% from God. It was his idea, it was his will, it was his method alone. Man could never conceive the gospel, and man cannot earn salvation by his will or works.

This is all correct. Now go read the parable of the sower. The same seed was sown to four different kinds of ground representing the hearer. Only those who heard the word and kept it were fruitful.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

That man is responsible for what he hears is explained by Jesus at the end of this parable.

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

To whoever will listen to God's word, more grace shall be given. But to those who are indifferent to it, even that which was given them shall be taken away. Numerous parables show this such as the parable of the talents in Matthew 25.

Matt 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

While God's grace is not merited by us, when God shows us grace he expects us to use it. To those who employ his grace more will be given. To those who disregard it, even what they were given shall be taken away.

This is a prophecy of Jesus coming. Jesus is the seed.

It is not I that is rejecting God's word. Jesus said the dead (the unregenerate) shall hear his voice, and they that hear shall live. You can argue your view all day long, the words of Jesus himself contradict it. The men who were convicted by Jesus's words concerning the woman caught in the act of adultery show man can respond to God's word.

It is only because you have accepted the false teaching that unregenerate men are 100% unable to hear and respond to God that you cannot understand.

Were Adam and Eve unregenerate after they sinned? YES. Did they come to God when he called them? YES.

Was Cain unregenerate? YES. Did God say he could do well and would be accepted? YES.

You can't cherry-pick scripture and build doctrine. You have to consider all scripture.

 

win:

Thats what you say, but Jesus says Jn 8:47

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

If one is not of God, forget about hearing God's word..

 

It does not say they CANNOT hear God's word, it simply says they will not hear God's word.

So, do you believe a person can be "of God" before they believe? Do you think a person can belong to Christ before he believes?

Answer that please, and scripture to support your answer would be nice.

 

I clearly remember you making the argument that the Philipian jailer simply wanted to escape hell in the past. You have no idea what the Philipian jailer's true motives were. And you also have made the argument that the rich ruler wasn't regenerated and therefore could not desire to be truly saved. I can go back and find this if you would like.

Give me a break. If you cross from New Jersey to New York through the Lincoln Tunnel, which comes first, the tunnel or New York?

I would agree that the instant you believe you receive the Spirit and are regenerated, but faith is the cause and being regenerated the effect.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul is directly explaining here how (the cause) a person receives the Holy Spirit in Gal 3:2. Do we receive the Holy Spirit by keeping the works of the law? NO. Do we receive the Spirit by hearing and believeing God's word? YES.

Eph 1:13 shows the same.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

When did they trust or believe? AFTER hearing the gospel. When were they sealed by the Spirit? AFTER trusting or believeing.

The scriptures clearly show an order whether you will accept it or not. A person does not receive the Holy Spirit until AFTER they believe.

 

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

This jailer wasn't regenerated until after he heard the word and believed. Regeneration and salvation are interchangeable terms.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

Was I making the argument here? no, then there was no reason for you to bring it up.

not according to Scripture.

So you are saved for a moment and don't have the spirit, thus not regenerated. Not according to Romans 8:9. You are making the same mistake as those that put regenerate before faith. And Ephesians 1 shows that you are sealed after believing. Of course. The Holy Spirit keeps you once you are saved. This is not regeneration here, but perseverance.

 

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:9)

The teaching is simple. If any man have not the Spirit he is not of God. That means he is neither regenerated, nor is he saved. You cannot be regenerated without being saved. There is no Scripture that teaches that unless you allegorize Scripture like the Catholic saint Augustine did, and the heretic Origen did.

 

Before Christ was glorified, many people were saved who did not yet have the Spirit.

Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

This woman was saved, all her sins were forgiven. Yet, the Holy Spirit was not given to believers until after Jesus rose from the dead and was glorified.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

No one had the indwelling Holy Spirit until after Jesus was glorified. Yet these people believed. And this verse clearly shows that the Holy Spirit is "given" to believers.

Do you deny that these persons were believers before receiving the Spirit?

 

Were the apostles believers? When did they receive the Spirit?

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Were the disciples believers before Jesus breathed on them and gave them the Holy Spirit? YES.

John 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

I have shown you quite a few examples from scripture of people believeing before receiving the Holy Spirit. How about you showing me even one example of a person receiving the Holy Spirit before believeing?

 

You cannot compare the OT dispensations to the NT dispensation of grace. If you do such people as Moses, Noah, Daniel are not regenerated nor saved. But they are both. In fact Elijah was taken to heaven in a whirlwind and Enoch was translated. He walked with God and was no more for God took him.

 

I would dispute with Spurgeon that regeneration and salvation are equivalent. The former is a precondition for and will inevitably lead to the latter but they are not equivalent.

Also, it seems that the question of "what must I do to be saved" does not necessarily indicate regeneration. The rich young ruler asked essentially the same question yet went away troubled at the answer.

Hence, the answer to the question is: maybe or maybe not, we have no way of knowing for certain when regeneration occurs in a person. I don't think that the person themselves can know for sure when this occurs - they can only know when they perceive it has happened.

 

I do not think you can compare prophets such as Moses or Elijah to the average believer. These were specially chosen men to serve God.

In the OT believers were sometimes filled with the Spirit, or the Spirit came upon them, but they were not indwelled by the Spirit. An example would be king Saul who prophesied, but the Spirit was taken from him later.

Nevertheless, the scriptures show many people who believed before the indwelling Spirit was given. I personally believe those believers who passed away before Jesus was glorified were given the indwelling Spirit later.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

I believe the scriptures show all believers went to Abraham's bosom and waited there until Christ rose and offered his blood on the mercy seat. Only then could those believer's sins be atoned for and they could enter the presence of God. I believe one of the gifts spoken of in Eph 4:8 is the indwelling Holy Spirit for those held captive in Abraham's bosom.

The fact remains, that many people believed in Christ before the indwelling Spirit was given. So obviously men have the ability to believe. I do not say they have this ability without the grace of God, but I believe that grace is an external grace, especially the word of God. This is surely what Paul said, asking how a person could believe in Jesus unless they have heard of him, and saying that faith comes by hearing the word of God in Romans 10.

 

I believe Calvinists/Reformed mistake being enlightened to regeneration.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

You have persons here who are enlightened, they have tasted of the heavenly gift, they are partakers of the Holy Ghost, they have tasted the good word of God and the powers to come, they have come to repentance, yet they have fallen away in unbelief.

You have two possibilities here.

#1 A believer can lose his salvation

#2 An unregenerate person can be enlightened, a partaker of the Spirit, brought to the point of repentance... and yet fall away in unbelief.

Either way, this passage refutes TULIP.

I personally believe #2 is the correct interpretation. An unregenerate person can be enlighted by the word of God. They can understand they are a sinner, they can understand Jesus died for them, they can understand that if they trust Jesus they will be saved, they can be brought under conviction and to the point of repentance, and yet turn away in unbelief.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

Again, the writer warns of those who have received the knowledge of the truth, and yet have trodden under foot the Son of God.

So, either this is a saved person that can lose salvation, or else it is an unregenerate person who understands that Jesus died for him and rejects it.

Take your pick.

 

Not if you include a third viable option.

#3 He is speaking of a hypothetical to illustrate a point, not of an actual event which occurs (due to God's faithfulness).

 

God is no respecter of persons. I am chosen to serve God too.
There is no one in this world that God loves any more than you. And that statement could apply to anyone. He is no respecter of persons. I am a special chosen vessel of his grace. So was Moses.

Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. (James 5:17-18)
--James states there is no difference between Elijah and the average believer today. We all have the same access to God, the same privilege to serve him.

 

I have heard this explanation before, but it is very weak, as the writer compared these persons to real persons.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Besides this, does it really make sense to warn people of an impossibility? So, this explanation is highly unlikely to be correct.