When You See Jerusalem Surrounded.....

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

How does this prove Jesus came in 70 A.D.? The scriptures say every eye will see him. Do you have any historical records of people seeing Jesus in his glory with his angels in 70 A.D.?

Matt 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

This is exactly the same. Do you have any historical records of this? When Jesus came as a poor baby in a manger, the whole wide world knows about it. How come nobody knows that he came in 70 A.D.?

Matt 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Jesus was speaking to his disciples here. He was warning them against Jews, not the Romans.

Matt 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

Bet you never noticed that before did you?

James 5:5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

How does this prove Jesus came in 70 A.D.?

What do you mean Matthew 23? What verse(s) do you want me to consider?

The days of Noe are Jesus showing that when Jesus comes it will be a worldwide event, not a local event like the destruction of Jersusalem.

Why go to the mountains? Because Jesus is going to divide Mt. Olives and give them a valley to escape from the nations surrounding them (Zech 14:4-5). The burning of the earth is after his thousand year reign.

1 Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Peter is saying be ready, for Jesus is coming. Peter also told believers to be patient, and spoke of scoffers who would say where is his coming? Proves nothing for your position.

2 Pet 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

This actually argues it will be a long time before Jesus was to come, as men would get impatient and ask "where is the promise of his coming?" This argues against Jesus coming in just a few short years.

We are living in the last days.

I don't need Greek, I have an infallible Bible in English, why do I need to know Greek?

Nothing you have shown here proves Jesus came in 70 A.D.. You will take offense at this, but you are doing the same things the Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups have done, selecting verses to try to piece together a doctrine you have already predetermined. The JW's and other groups have done the same thing numerous times.

Trust me, when Jesus comes you and I and everyone else will know it.

 

I had answered most of your questions when everything got erased (using my daughter's laptop-what a pain.)

I have to go early tonight, I have a big road trip early in the morning. But I should get back to you tomorrow evening.

 

Nothing more defeating than having everything typed out then losing it. Happened to me numerous times. Travel safe and I'll catch you tommorrow........although Dallas-Washington play tommorrow night. Maybe monday.:laugh:

 

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Avoided the question once again. You said verse 28 refers to the Transfiguration, so what do you do with verse 27? Pretend its not there I guess.

I didn't avoid your question whatsoever, it is a question that cannot be answered. Nothing in this verse states when Jesus will come again. This verse could apply to 10,000 A.D. as easily as 70 A.D.. Your question was, "What do you do with Matt 16:27?

Matt 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Avoided the question once again. He told Caiaphas he would see the son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven. Did he see it or didn't he?

First, I sincerely doubt Caiaphas was even alive in 70 A.D. He was appointed high priest in 18 A.D.. Now let's assume he was young, only 30 years old when this happened. That means in 70 A.D. he would have been 82 years old. It is far more likely that he was much older than 30 years old when appointed high priest, these positions normally go to much older and experienced men. If he was 50 years old in 18 A.D., he would have 102 years old in 70 A.D..

But the answer is that every eye will see Jesus when he comes, not just the living, but those who have long perished. Job himself said this.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Job shall see Jesus at the resurrection of the living, Caiaphas will see Jesus at the resurrection of the dead. Notice it says Jesus is sitting. This is the great white throne in Revelations, the judgement.

Matt 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matt 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

Avoided the question again: Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Did the Son of man come before they finished going through the cities of Israel or are they still doing it and still being scourged?

Many scholars believe Jesus was speaking to his disciples here. I personally do not believe this. I believe Jesus is speaking of Jews who will convert to Christ during the great tribulation. They will be persecuted by the Jews and the anti-christ who will be sitting in the temple of God. Many will be beheaded, but not all, some will escape and be alive when Jesus returns.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

James 5:5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

I guess if you ignore the "coming draweth nigh" part it proves nothing.

You focus on the word "nigh" and completely overlook the phrase "Be patient therefore", the word "waiteth" and the phrase "and hath long patience for it" and "Be ye also patient". So, there is four times more indication in this passage that it will be a long time till Jesus returns than there is that he will come very quickly.

Now, that should get your attention. It shows you are looking only for those words or phrases that support your doctrine, while overlooking or ignoring words or phrases that contradict it. Is that the proper way to study the scriptures?

Then the "days of Noah" refer the second coming at the beginning at the 1000 reign, not the New heavens and New Earth at the end of the 1000 years. Correct?

I believe so yes. I believe this is the great tribulation. Read Revelations and look at all the plagues that will come upon the earth. When the 4 angels in Rev 9 are released, they alone will kill 1/3 of all the men on earth.

Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

I think even you would agree that did not happen in 70 A.D. I believe that immediately after the rapture of believers that the anti-christ, the son of perdition will be revealed. He will come on the scene suddenly. The first 3 1/2 years will be good, and the world will worship him as God, he will sit in the temple. At this time he will persecute Christians. But in the middle of the tribulation he will turn on the Jews. During the last 3 1/2 years God will release his plagues on the earth.

Now, that said, I don't think for one second I understand this all. This is very difficult scripture, very learned men have debated this book for centuries. But this is what I believe from reading these scriptures.


Why go to the mountains? Because Jesus is going to divide Mt. Olives and give them a valley to escape from the nations surrounding them (Zech 14:4-5). The burning of the earth is after his thousand year reign.

So this verse is not speaking of a time at the end of the 1000 years but before?

I think so. I personally believe this to be the armies of the world, also spoken of as a flood in Revelations 12.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The woman is Israel. She will flee into the wilderness through the great valley created when Mt. Olives divides in two. I have also come to believe that this army will follow after the Jews and perhaps be swallowed up in a great earthquake, or perhaps Mt. Olives will come back together upon them.

This is exactly as when the Jews fled from the Egyptians. God opened up the Red Sea. In the future it will be Mt. Olives. They will flee through the valley, the army will persue after them as Pharaoh did and be destroyed.

No one taught me this, I have come to this belief by reading the scriptures and noticing the similarities between Moses dividing the Red Sea, and Jesus dividing the Mount of Olives. I could be wrong, but the similarities are striking.

I am going to cut this post off here, it is too long, I will post a second post to answer your other questions.

 

2nd half

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

1 Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Peter is saying be ready, for Jesus is coming. Peter also told believers to be patient, and spoke of scoffers who would say where is his coming? Proves nothing for your position.

If this is saying Jesus is coming, then it must be "at hand" because that is what Peter said. Did you ever wonder why the scoffers were asking where is the promise of His coming? Perhaps because they understood it would be in their generation or it was at hand. Why would they understand it that way? Because that is what Jesus and the NT writer taught them!

You are being ironic. You are actually arguing that Jesus had to come soon just as these scoffers did. And Peter was telling them that God is coming very soon, but in his perspective, not man's. This is the passage where he said:

2 Pet 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

We are living in the last days.

Peter is showing that it will be a long time before Jesus returns, and says some men will become impatient and unbelieving saying, "where is the promise of his coming?"

Right after this Peter explains that God is not slack "as some men count" and explains that a thousand years is but a day to the Lord and vice versa.

2 Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


So it is your understanding the last days began in the 1st century and carry on throughout Church History?

I believe they also include the tribulation, and possibly also the millenium, and the new heavens and earth.

I don't need Greek, I have an infallible Bible in English, why do I need to know Greek?

I just wanted everyone reading this to again this this statement by you.

I wouldn't have said it if I didn't mean it.

Nothing you have shown here proves Jesus came in 70 A.D.. You will take offense at this, but you are doing the same things the Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups have done, selecting verses to try to piece together a doctine you have already predetermined. The JW's and other groups have done the same thing numerous times.

Do JW's believe in a 1000 year Kingdom reign?

Yes, they do. And they have fixed dates for Jesus's 2nd coming numerous times and been embarrassed. What I am talking about is selecting scripture to build a doctrine, instead of building doctrine from what scriptures says.

Questions you chose not to answer:

1.What about Daniel 2 and the timing of the Kingdom?

2.What about Micah 1?

I'll answer, but not tonight. I just spent at least an hour answering this. If you start demanding I answer you like I am at your beckon call, I won't answer you at all. If you want somebody to answer you, ask with respect.

 

I

Of course it can be answered, it is fulfilled before some standing there died:

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

The "verily" connects it to the previous verse. Context destroys your view. As I pointed out earlier you flip the order of events, you have verse 27 being fulfilled thousands of years after verse 28. Just how many gaps do you see in the Bible? You have one in Dan. 9, Matthew 16, Matthew 24, any more?
　

So what you are saying is EVERYONE (Adam on down) who has ever lived will see Jesus coming on the clouds. Scripture please. Or just another poor attempt to avoid an obvious teaching of scripture. You have a strange way of taking the Bible "literally".

Interesting, you have insisted you never read their works:

"I have owned one commentary in my life, Matthew Henry, and that was given me as a gift. I almost never read it, and do not even know what happened to it, I haven't seen it in nearly 15 years."

Now you seem to be quite familiar with their works. Perhaps you haven't quite been truthful with me.

There is a reason the scholars think Jesus was speaking to His disciples, it's because that is who Jesus was speaking to!


Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
　
What do you do, just rewrite the Bible when you run into problems. He is talking to His disciples and EVERYONE knows it. Your objection fails miserably. No wonder you didn't want to answer questions.
　

You personally believe this not because scripture teaches it but because you have to in order to avoid what it clearly teaches. No better definition of "private interpretation" than this.

See, you ignored "coming draweth nigh" again. "Be patient" goes with "draweth nigh". There was no reason for James' audience to be patient for an event that would not happen for 1000's of years. The Judge standing at the door give further evidence of a soon occurance:

Jas 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
If He is standing at the door, that means He's getting ready to come through it.

I think you just did that, ignored the very phrase I was asking about, "draweth nigh".

Is this not the flood account:

2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


The flood is used in reference to the New Heavens and New Earth.
　

 

II

Well, you contradict yourself, earlier you said it kill all men, not 1/3rd:
"Noah's flood was not a local event, it killed all men on earth. And it will be the same when Jesus returns. So the destruction of Jersualem as bad as it was, was not what Jesus was speaking about. When he returns the whole world will know it."

So who enters the 1000 year MK if everyone is killed?

Secondly God promised never to destroy the world again:

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Right out of "The Late Great Planet Earth"

You didn't get that from reading the scriptures alone, and everyone knows it. Unless you consider the Margin Notes of the Scofield Bible "scripture".

Shoot, just make it up as you go. Anything to support your view.

The Exodus motif fits perfectly with a preterist view:

Why did the scoffers expect a soon return? Because they understood what the NT writers meant when they said "at hand" and "near".

This might be the most absurd thing yet, and that's saying something. Basically you render the phrase "last days" meaningless.

Sounds just like you. You're coming up with stuff that would make a JW proud.

I've been asking for days. You have yet to address either one.

I first asked about Micah 1 on 12/14 on page 1 post #5. I asked again on the fourth page. Care to guess how many times you've posted on various threads since then?

I first brought up the coming of the Kingdom in post #48, 12/23.
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　

 

Grasshopper

This is useless. You are not going to change my mind, and I am not going to change your's. I looked at your profile once, you have been debating this for many years, and nobody has changed your opinion. I hardly intend to spend 5 years debating with you. Believe what you want, but don't expect many people to agree with you. It is obvious to most people that Jesus did not come in 70 A.D.. If he did, the whole wide world would be completely aware of it.

I am not giving up because I cannot show you much evidence that you are in error, I can. But others have shown you this and you are impervious to any evidence shown. I simply don't enjoy debating forever.

That said, we can still discuss many issues here, but I'm not going to waste anymore time on this.

 

I guess you will also give up debating Calvinist for the same reason?

Too bad you never gave any here.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
http://www.baptistboard.com/search.php?searchid=806233

I guess you have found it easier to ask questions than to answer them.

I think there is a reason you never answered my last 2 questions. In answering them, your entire system would crumble.:wavey: