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Featured Where did the Wrath of God go? Part 2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin Marprelate, Mar 21, 2022.

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  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    On a recently closed thread, @JonC asked me some questions which I will now answer:
    1. There is a huge number of texts that show that Christ was our substitute. I will post just one:
    'He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree.' He bore our sins so that we don't have to. He bore them; we don't. If He didn't bear them, we would have to do so. He is our substitute.

    2. God's wrath is His righteous, judicial anger against sin (Psalms 7:11; Romans 1:18ff). 'He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree.' There is no point in Christ bearing our sins unless He also bears the wrath entailed with them, otherwise God is still angry with us. But also Romans 3:25-26 tells us that God set forth Christ as a 'propitiation,' that is, a 'wrath removing sacrifice' (William Hendricksen). The Greek word indicates the blood-sprinkled lid of the ark of the covenant; the "mercy seat" (KJV, NKJV) or "atonement cover" (NIV). On the Day of Atonement, the High Priest must first make atonement for his own sins before he could do so for the people, otherwise God's wrath would remain on him and any sacrifice he offered would be rejected. The reason that Christ is made a propitiation is so that God may be 'just, and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.' God's wrath is righteous and judicial. He 'cannot deny Himself.' He cannot just pour Himself a large gin and tonic, take a deep breath and 'get over' His anger against sin. Justice must be done; sin must be punished, and it is, in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    3. Romans 5:6. 'For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.' What does this mean? It means that Christ died, so that ungodly sinners like you and I who believe on Him, will never die (John 11:25-26). He died instead of us.
     
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  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Let's look at it.

    1. SCRIPTURE- "He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree."

    NOT Scripture - He bore our sins so that we don't have to. He bore them; we don't. If He didn't bear them, we would have to do so. He is our substitute.

    2. SCRIPTURE - Romans 1:18–24 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

    Psalm 7:9–16.
    O let the evil of the wicked come to an end, but establish the righteous; For the righteous God tries the hearts and minds. My shield is with God, Who saves the upright in heart. God is a righteous judge, And a God who has indignation every day. If a man does not repent, He will sharpen His sword;
    He has bent His bow and made it ready.
    He has also prepared for Himself deadly weapons; He makes His arrows fiery shafts. Behold, he travails with wickedness,
    And he conceives mischief and brings forth falsehood. He has dug a pit and hollowed it out,
    And has fallen into the hole which he made. His mischief will return upon his own head, and his violence will descend upon his own pate

    NOT in Scripture: There is no point in Christ bearing our sins unless He also bears the wrath entailed with them, otherwise God is still angry with us.

    3. SCRIPTURE - Romans 5:1–10 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
    For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

    This is true - It means that Christ died, so that ungodly sinners like you and I who believe on Him, will never die.

    THIS IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE - He died instead of us.


    How do you justify the things you have added to Scripture in your post?
     
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Solid post MM.

    Some have posted God does not concern Himself with all sins.

    They just disappear when a new birth without any consequence and yet will suggest God is the JUST AND THE JUSTIFIER..without judging those sins.
     
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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    https://www.monergism.com/thethresh...ous Atonement Through Chr - Louis Berkhof.pdf

    Atonement legal; Denial of the legal element. THE penal substitutionary doctrine of the atonement proceeds on the assumption that sin is in its very nature a transgression of the law of God and thus renders man guilty. For that very reason the remedy proposed for it must be first of all a legal remedy. This point calls for particular attention because of its widespread denial. The forensic nature of the atonement finds no favor with the advocates of the Moral Influence, or of the Mystical Theory, because it does not fit in with their fundamental thought. According to Sabatier "the capital defect of the old theory lay in its legal character. The Christian thought of our time has, on the contrary, been constantly endeavoring to lift the doctrine of expiation from the forensic to the ethical point of view." The Atonement in Modern Thought, p. 213. Lyman Abbott makes the broad statement that "no theory of the atonement can be correct which represents it as a method of appeasing God's wrath, or satisfying His justice, or meeting the requirements of His law, or devised as a substitute for punishment due to infraction of that law." Ibid, p. 97 f. Stevens expresses the opinion that even "the stoutest recent defender of substitution and propitiation will not allow that he holds any legal or forensic theory." The Christian Doctrine of Salvation, p. 251. Moreover, says he, "Desert the strict penal equivalence theory of atonement (as he thinks every sensible man will naturally do), and you logically end in the moral theory." Op. cit., p. 432.
     
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  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    @Iconoclast ,

    You do not understand views that oppose your own. This is evident by your constant posts that we believe God's wrath "just disappears".

    Think about what you are saying in the post:

    God makes the unjust just. But what happens to God's wrath?

    Scripture tells us over and over again exactly what happens to God's wrath. It is on the wicked. If you repent God is faithful to forgive.

    Scripture says repent and God is faithful to forgive. God is just and the justifier of sinners, re-creating men. You are concerned about what happens to God's wrath if He forgives.

    The question "what happens to God's wrath....where does it go?" is not a legitimate question.

    If a brother slaps you and then repents and comes to you asking for forgiveness....what happens to your wrath? Who must you make suffer so that you can forgive a brother? Where does your wrath go?

    This topic has devolved into a very strange philosophical argument acting as if wrath is a tangible object, or some force that must be expelled.

    There is a "day of Judgment", a day when God's wrath will be poured upon the wicked. God will separate people as one separates goats and sheep. Then God will exercise judgment. His wrath will abide on the wicked. But the just will not experience God's wrath. God is just and the justifier of sinners.
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The only reason God is said to be the just and the justifier is because He designed a way to justly punish all sin....that is known in scripture as the CROSS.
    You weave the verse into your post without the meaning of the words being there.Another empty husk..
    Why an empty husk? You offer no biblical answer.
    You say basically the wicked absorb all the wrath.You were a child of wrath even as others...but the wrath DUE to your law breaking just dissolves?
    You offer partial verses saying look I have mentioned the term just and justifier, as if you addressed it but you are actually avoiding it.
    You were being answered last night before the towel was thrown in to rescue you.
    No one questions why those at the White Throne judgment are sent into second death.
    That let's you mention the word wrath as if that answers for who turns away the wrath from us in a way that is just.
    I understand just fine by the way.
    I understand your response seeks to avoid the meaning of the cross.
    Bottom line is your idea of forgiveness and then a quick new creation, let's just forget it happened, scenario while millions experience wrath for each and every sin they committed is not justice when others are just released and wrath for their sin is just dissolved, disappeared, with no relation to the cross is not just.
     
    #6 Iconoclast, Mar 22, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2022
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  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am not weaving anything. I am looking at your understanding.

    It seems that you treat divine wrath and sin as tangible, or forces, within a yen and yang type of idea. This is an error.

    Think about what you are saying -

    God has stored up His wrath not against the wicked byt against individual sins. God tajes these sins and lays them on Christ and then punishes these sins on Christ instead of punishing us because He has to punish those sins in order to forgive the sinner.

    This concept is not in the Bible. It is no longer even a legitimate moral philosophy as it demonstrates injustice rather than justice.

    But God's wrath against sin is on the wicked. The wicked will suffer God's wrath "on that day". The law says all of the wicked will - no way out of it. This does not change. God is immutable. But what if man can, not through the law but through faith, be reborn? Then "on that day" they are just, and will not suffer God's wrath. In Chrust we escape the wrath to come, He is the Propitiation for our sins, and God is justcand the justifier of sinners.
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No...repeating the error does not change the facts. I cannot be responsible for you thinking about Yin and Yang.
     
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  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am asking about your view.

    What do you see wrong in how I understand your belief:

    1. God laid our sins on the Righteous and punished those sins on Him rather than punishing the wicked.

    2. What Christ experienced was God's wrath that would otherwise have been poured out on us.

    3. God, by His nature, being just, must punish sins.

    4. Our redemption depends on God punishing our sins on Another so that we are forgiven.

    5. Had God not punished our sins in or on Christ then we would have to experience God's wrath.

    I understand that you may not believe the above, but if not then please clarify rather than offering insults.
     
  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I have seen this sort of argument before, from the Jehovah's Witnesses. Don't reason from Scripture, don't compare Scripture with Scripture, don't read what anyone else says about Scripture; just listen to us.

    Never mind that if Christ died so that ungodly sinners who believe on Him will never die, it is an inescapable fact that He MUST have died instead of us. Never mind that God's anger against sinners is based upon His justice and cannot be mollified unless that justice is satisfied. Never mind that if God can just forgive sin there is no reason for Christ to die. Just listen to JonC and the liberal theologians he has learned it all from.

    I am quite happy with what I have written. It is all drawn from the Scriptures, and reasoned from nothing else but the Scriptures. If one cannot reason from the Scriptures (Acts of the Apostles 17:2 etc.), then preaching and Bible exposition goes out the window and there is no point in writing books - all we do is read Scripture to each other without explaining it.

    The evidence for the Trinity is irrefutable; the evidence for Penal Substitution is even stronger, but if one cannot reason from the Scriptures, then neither doctrine can be taught.
     
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  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Uh....that is exactly what you are doing. "It does not matter what Scripture says, it matters what Scripture teaches. Sure you can't test it against Scripture, but believe us anyway".

    My point is that you, just like the Jehovah Witnesses, SDA, Mormons, etc. are saying not what Scripture says but what you believe it should say, what you believe it teaches, what you believe it means when properly understood. You have no ground to criticize those cults because you ate doing exactly the same thing. And just like the Jehovah Witnesses, you claim it is God's Word.

    Why do you believe the Reformed men you chose to disciple yourself under? Why not another sect or cult? Because they "tickle your ears". Just like the Jehovah Witnesses your theories do not stand up to the Word of God.

    The difference between the Trinity and your faith is the Trinity can be found in the actual text of Scripture.....not just in what you believe is taught but in the actual text. Scrioture states (using words) that God is One, that the Son and Father are One, that the Father is God, and that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. Those things are actually in the text of the Bible. Your faith is not.

    That you cannot find a verse stating God is one, and one stating the Father and Son are One, and one stating the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God is a reflection of inadequate reading skills, not a proof that the Trinity is not in the text of Scripture.

    If you need help finding those passages so that you will not have to rely on your own understanding then okease let me know. I have posted them several times before but will again.

    You say there is more evidence your theories are correct, but thus far you only give verses with your theories mixed in. Your claim is obviously false.
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    @Martin Marprelate

    1 John 5:7
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


    God being One -Father, the Word, and Holy Spirit is clearly in the text of Scripture.

    Here are a couple more for you to consider before you chalk up the Father, Son, and Spirit being One God to mere human reasoning.:

    John 10:30
    I and my Father are one.

    Isaiah 44:6
    Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    Now....can you show me a verse that says Jesus died instead of us?

    Can you show me a verse stating that Christ suffered God's wrath?

    No, of course you can't. If you could you woukd have long ago. Part of this inability is the fact it is not in the Bible. But a larger problem is you can't even find what is there (like the Father, Son and Spirit being One God). This is proven that you chalk up the doctrine to reasoning when it is spelled out - word for word - in the text of Scripture.
     
  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    :Rolleyes You show that you have never discussed Scripture with a JW or other Unitarian. Do you think they don't know that John 10:30 is in the Bible? They would laugh you out of the place! They will tell you that it means that Jesus and Jehovah are of one mind, and point you to John 14:28; 'For the Father is greater than I.' And as for the Spirit being the Sprit of God, they will tell you that that means precisely that the spirit is not God; it (their words) belongs to God. The sprit is God's active force, they wil tell you.
    You are making yourself ridiculous. Go and find yourself a JW and see how far you get. If you want to prove the Trinity, you have to go the hard mile and compare Scripture with Scripture. That is why people write long books on the subject; because it is not an easy doctrine to prove.

    And don't think you can convince anyone with 1 John 5:7. You know perfectly well that there is barely a single Greek MS that contains it. And Isaiah 44:6 doesn't show the Trinity. But you're on the right track. You have to compare Scripture with Scripture and produce multiple texts and the evidence will steadily mount up. But of course, that is what you are absolutely not prepared to do on Penal Substitution.

    Yes. I showed you in my post above, but there's none so blind as those who won't see.
     
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  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The JW and the Mormons do not, as you suggest, stick with the text of Scripture.

    Let's look at your claim.

    1. I claim that Scripture states that God is One.
    2. I claim that Scripture states that the Father is God.
    3. I claim that Scripture states that the Son and Father are One.
    4. I claim that Scripture identifies the Spirit as the Spirit of God.

    Which of those, by number, are you incapable of finding in the text of Scripture?

    Now do that with your theory, the one you say there is more evidence for in Scripture.

    We can interpret differently what is written....But you are flat out adding to God's Word. You cannot even provide one verse that can be interpreted to state that Christ suffered God's wrath instead of us.
     
  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    You're joking, right? Of course I find them all in Scripture because I am a Trinitarian. Doh! But a JW or Unitarian will not find 3 or 4, simply because they are not conclusive proofs of the Trinity. They will find 1 and 2 because they agree with them.
    Of course I can and reasonable people will agree with me. But you are beyond reasoning with and therefore will not be convinced.
     
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  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You are wrong. They DO find it in the text of Scripture (if they use a legitimate translation). They just reason away what they find. Just like you reason away Scripture stating that it is an abomination to God to condemn the just.
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    What's up, @Iconoclast ? Can you answer for your faith?
     
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    The Scripture actually says, 'If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' If God is a just Judge, how is He just to forgive our sins? The text tells us a little further down. '......And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins. and not for ours only, but for the whole world.' Christ the righteous One has made the 'wrath-removing sacrifice' for our sins and God is now propitiated towards us. Now, with redemption having been accomplished at the cross, it can be applied in the New Birth. We must not repeat the error of Roman Catholicism by conflating Justification and Sanctification.

    'There was no other good enough
    To pay the price of sin.
    He, only, could unlock the gate
    Of heaven and let us in.'
     
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  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I have shown you many reasons why they don't. And also, it is only the JWs who have their own translation. Christadelphians and other Unitarians use other translations, mostly the KJV.
    You still don't understand. Christ was not condemned by God. On the contrary, He was vindicated by the Father at His resurrection (Romans 1:4). On the cross, He willingly took our sins upon Himself and bore the shame and the punishment of them (Hebrews 12:2) in our place. And the Father, who is of purer eyes than to behold evil turned His face away from Him during that time until propitiation was made and our sins paid for.
    If God had just taken some random bloke against his will and punished him for someone else's sins, that would be an abomination, but in fact it is God Himself, in the Person of the Lord Jesus who has Himself redeemed us from our sins.

    And this is not an abomination! It is wonderful and marvellous beyond all praise! '.....He Himself took upon Him our sins, Himself gave His own Son as a ransom for us.....For what could cover our sins but His righteousness In whom was it possible for us, lawless and impious as we were, to be justified, save only in the Son of God? Oh, sweet exchange and unsearchable act of creation....that the lawlessness of many should be hidden in the one righteous, and that the righteousness of one should justify many who were lawless!'
     
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  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Very clear and solid posting MM.
    You show very clearly how the whole design of scripture is unified at the cross for any who have eyes to see.
     
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