Where does believing faith come from part 3

The English versions are more than adequate. By the way those that produce them are the best of the best in the languages. I agree if you can't trust them trash them but we can trust them.

The meanings you find in the English translation are the intended meanings that to the best of the translator’s ability have rendered the meaning intended. Thus that is why the aorist participle is translated "believed" and "believing" so that it conveys to the English reader the meaning of the text as intended by the author of that text.

 

Your faith = who's faith is it?

Jesus did not say "the faith I gave you"

If this was what was intended it would have been stated that way.

 

Facts are great and yes in Titus Paul states the facts and what are the facts?

Fact: Saved is what? The Holy Spirit washing of regeneration and renewing.

Fact: regeneration is - new birth

Fact: renewing is renewing

What do we have? We have the fact that the Holy Spirit causes us to be "regenerated” and this is called "Saved" that is a fact.

This work of the Holy Spirit is not our work it is His and this is a fact, our part is faith this too is a fact.

Fact: Jesus told the woman in Luke 7:50 that this fact stated in Titus 3:5 happened to her because of her faith. This is a fact.

The facts are on the side of facts and those facts disagree emphatically with your view and the ongoing view of Calvinism. These are real facts.

Fact: the sequence of correlated passages of Scripture are: faith first, Regeneration second - this is in fact the facts of what the factual truth of the word tells us.

The pivotal point of Luke 7:50 and Titus 3:5 is "believed" the facts

in Luke 7:50 faith precedes believe a fact
In Titus 3:5 believed is explained as the work of the Holy Spirit and the explanation of it does not place it before faith it simply educates us as to the ministry of the Holy Spirit - this is a fact

Facts support my view.


Regards
Benefactor

 

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this follow that last post

Let’s take a look at Titus 3:5b from the Greek
ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὸ αὐτοῦ ἔλεος ἔσωσεν ἡμᾶς διὰ λουτροῦ παλινγενεσίας καὶ ἀνακαινώσεως πνεύματος ἁγίου,

but according to the of Him mercy He saved us (conjunctive clause)

ἀλλὰ - Alla – but – superordinationg conjunction – Not just a contrast but designates that mercy is superior to works, works cannot save us. If God were not merciful then salvation is a mute issue. Mercy denotes power of the God being merciful, showing favor, kindness, compassion etc. toward or on the objects of His mercy, those who believe.
κατὰ - kata – according – preposition accusative – (not according to works but His mercy He saved, those who believe) Paul is describing the divine side of the moment of salvation.
τὸ - to – the – this definite article is accusative neuter and is related to mercy because it is accusative neuter, “the mercy” of him.
αὐτοῦ - autou - of Him – personal pronoun genitive case masculine third person singular. “mercy is of Him”
ἔλεος - eleos – mercy – accusative masculine singular
ἡμᾶς - haemas– us – personal pronoun nominative first person singular
ἔσωσεν -esoosen – saved - indicative aorist active verb third person singular. We are saved at a point in time past. This aorist tense is to be considered as follows: Having a starting point, ( the moment of passing from death to life, conversion, born from above etc.), with the results that continues, illustrated in Greek grammars as follows: *----------------- The asterisk representing the moment it took place and the line indicating the continuing effects of the event. The state of saved is an instantaneous moment but the effects are ongoing.

The perfect tense of the same word is found in Luke 7:50. In Titus 3:5 Paul illustrates the Divine side of salvation. The Holy Spirit, upon faith in Christ, in a moment of time saved us. This saved us is described as “washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.” The terms washing and renewing are descriptive, adjectival in function not a process. The linier effect of positional salvation is ongoing but this verse is not addressing the ongoing results or effects of regeneration, for that is an act in a point in time and its results continue. A crude illustration would be, God called a rock into existence and the rock continues in that state or a tree is created and will continually be a tree until it dies, decays, and returns to the basic elements of the earth. The physical body is born and it continues until it dies. The emphasis of Titus 3:5 is not the maturing or ongoing process it is the event of birth, saved according to “washing of new birth and renewing by the Holy Spirit”.
Here in Luke 7:50 we have the following:
Jesus stated in Luke 7:50 that faith saved, Paul describes saved as washing or regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.
The perfect tense of “has saved” σεσωκεν – seswken (indicative perfect active third person singular). When the indicative mood is used in the perfect tense, the mood of reality, it signifies that the action as complete in the present. It is to be viewed as a completed action in present time, not the distance past or near past but the immediate past, it just happened at this point in time and the past of it is that close. We call it “simple past” in English. Example of a simple past is illustrated by the following: The accident just happened. It did not happen yesterday or a week ago it just happened. The woman was just saved there in that moment of time in history because she believed. She believed and was saved. The same “saved” is described in Titus. The description of salvation in Titus 3:5 is what happened to the woman who believed to receive this regeneration.

διὰ λουτροῦ παλινγενεσίας καὶ ἀνακαινώσεως πνεύματος ἁγίου,

διὰ - dia – through – genitive preposition (from to) from lost to saved.
λουτροῦ - loutpou – noun, genitive, neuter, singular washing, specifically “of washing. The spelling on its own is either genitive or ablative. Genitive is “of…” and ablative use would be “from …” and the reason it is “of….”is because of the preposition “dia” through, a genitive preposition. When dia is used with this spelling if is genitive. This of itself gives the stronger argument that washing is not “water” but “spiritual” as is indicated “by Holy Spirit”. It is considered the resultant meaning as it is given here, “through or because of”, “saved through …….”. Dana Mantey page 101. We were saved “through washing or regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit”. The genitive case defines something. If we ask the question: What is regeneration? It is the Holy Spirit washing and renewing a person. What is saved/regeneration? The work of the Holy Spirit describes as washing and renewing. The actual act is new birth, salvation/regeneration defined as washing and renewing. The moment of salvation the Holy Spirit changes the lost spirit/soul to a saved spirit/soul and that is simply described as “washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit”
παλινγενεσίας – palingenesias – regeneration – new birth –
At this point it is critical to point that regeneration and renewing are related to the same and single event or point of salvation. Regeneration and renewing are both nouns that are genitive case, feminine gender and singular in number separated by a coordinating conjunction. They go together. They agree with each other. The words “washing” “of Spirit” “Holy” are all genitive, neuter, singular. What does this mean? It means that they belong together.
So we ask the question: How is one saved? By the Holy Spirit’s washing – of regeneration and renewing: What is being regenerated and renewed? The spirit/soul is saved, converted, it is reborn or renewed. The state of the spirit/soul is separated from God and described as dead and this soul/spirit is reborn or renewed. Remember the genitive defines. It describes what took place by using words to convey the truth of the instant of salvation.
Concluding then we have a simple truth that salvation is described as the Holy Spirit rebirthing the soul / spirit from is lost state to a saved state and this is described or defined as new birth and renewing of that soul/spirit.
According to Luke 7:50 as stated above this salvation is not possible unless a person believes. So a person must first have faith or believe and this results in regeneration as presented above.

 

Very well now that it is understood that faith is first and regeneration/saved is second or that is follows new birth. Pure facts nothing but the fracts .....

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Looking at Hebrews now:

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is (1) the assurance of things hoped for, (2) the conviction of things not seen. Faith then is trust in something that cannot be seen, but is hoped for. What exactly is this that can't be seen, but hoped for? How is this understood in light of John 20:29 "Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." In this case some believed that saw Jesus and others that did not see Him. Faith then cannot be in the man Jesus per say, but in the message of what is offered, "hoped for" that the person, this case Jesus, can do or deliver. What good is an expression of faith in a man? If we say I have faith in a man and we know nothing of the man then there is nothing to believe in. Faith would be in a skill, or past record of performance or in a promise, something that gives hope. In the case with Jesus we know from Scripture, which we also take by faith as God's word, the things hoped for which are not seen, which are specifically expressed in God's word.

Also, one key word has far reaching implications as used in this verse, the word “things”. The definition given by the author of Hebrews does not seem to have a theological definition in mind but an accepted understanding of the definition of faith, one that would be normal and understood in the time in which it was written. The average reader would understand this kind of language as the accepted norm in its historical setting to convey the idea and understanding of faith in anything, in this case the "hope" of what is given by God in the then existing writings of Scripture.

Scripture quoted are from the NASV.

The importance in understanding "faith" within Christianity has far reaching theological implications. Faith in simple terms is trust in something, but this simplicity is not so clear when it is spoken of in theological terms, especially when it is said to be a special gift given to man so that he will then be able to trust in Christ. This of course is the age long dispute between the belief systems of Calvinism and Arminianism.

Hebrews 11:1 clearly defines faith as that which is normally understood as trusting in something. It was not explained as some mystical or special infusion or gift for the purpose of trusting in Christ. Paul writes in Romans 10:17, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. The recipients of the letters to the Hebrews and Romans would have understood it in the same manner, trust in something. Paul informs the Romans that in order for them to believe they must hear the gospel. Hearing the gospel gives the listener the information needed to make a decision.

Faith is presented in Scripture as always occurring first followed by salvation (born from above / regeneration). This is clearly seen in Luke 7:50 'And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." .

The following two orders of salvation generally represent the two views, Calvinism and Arminianism.

Both views generally believe that those converted are chosen in eternity. The difference in simple terms is that Calvinism sees a few of the all arbitrarily picked (chosen - elected) prior to any creation. The Arminian views election from eternity based on foreknowledge and God's decree to allow contingency. The Arminian as the Calvinist will vary in their acceptance of the outline listed here. These are given as a general application and are not intended to speak for these systems specifically in every detail although they will find agreement among many.

The process illustrated by using the actual statements from Scripture. (NASV):

Luke 7:50 'And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

Your faith has----saved you

-------(God) ----He saved us ----- not on the basis of deeds (works) which we have done in righteousness

-------(God) ----He saved us ----- according to His mercy (how)

-------(God) ----He saved us ----- by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

Man's part in salvation is to believe, "Your faith has saved you".

God the Father's part is mercy

God the Holy Spirit's part is the washing of regeneration (new birth) and renewing (of us)

Calvinism teaches that if man believes in the grace of God with faith that is not infused before regeneration (new birth -saved) that this faith is a work. In other words a sinner who believes but was not saved first (regenerated) is working for their salvation. This approach to God's word is called eisegesis, "to read into". The Scripture clearly teaches that a lost person must believe prior to being saved. Their approach starts with philosophy, human reasoning.

Romans 10:8-13 (NASV)

8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Information is given, "the word of faith which we preach" the gospel. The word of faith is propositional. The gospel is propositional and as such calls for a decision to be made.

The decision called for is as follows: 1) Confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord; 2) believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead.

The result of such a decision is being saved, "you will be saved". Resulting in righteousness (justification) and salvation.

At the point or moment of justification one is saved, that takes place at the very same moment in time.

Propositional truth always calls for a decision. What that decision is lies in the hands of the one the truth is intended for.

Scripture tells us that man who refuses and refuses to listen and learn, John 6:45, will become reprobate and blinded past the enlightenment of God's prevenient call that all men are given, John 1:9; 12:32; 16:8-11; I Tim. 2:3-6; II Pet. 3: 9.

Please note that when a "w" or the "o",consonant followed by (e) is used the "w" or "o" is a long o sound.

Eph. 2:8 and 9 Greek

8. te gar cariti este seswsmenoi dia pistews kai touto ouk ex umwn qeou to dwron

9. ouk ex ergwn ina me tis kauchshtai

Eph. 2:8 and 9 - Transliterated

8. te gar cariti este seswsmenoi dia pisteos(e) kai touto ouk ex umon(e) qeou to dwron

9. ouk ex ergon(e) ina me tis kauchshtai

Eph. 2:8 and 9 Literal translation

8. For - the - grace - you are having been saved - through - faith - and - this - not - of - you - God - the - gift

9. not - of - works - in order that - not - anyone - sould boast.

The te te

for gar gar

by grace - cariti - cariti- noun, dative case, feminine in gender, singular in number

you (plural) are este

having been saved seswsmenoi - seswsmenoi - seswsmenoi - a verbal/adjective - a participle in the perfect tense, passive voice, nominative case, masculine gender, second person, plural in number (the same word exactly is in verse 5 too)

through dia

faith - pisteos(e) - pistewV - noun, genitive case, feminine gender, singular in number

and kai

this touto -near demonstrtive pronoun, nominative case, neuter in gender, singular in number

not - ouk - ouk

out of - ex - ex

you - umon(e) - umwn

God - theou - qeou

the - to - to

gift - doron - doron

Verse 9

not - ouk - ouk

out of - ex - ex

works - ergon(e) - ergwn

in order that - ina - ina

not - me - me

anyone - tis - tiV

should bost - kauchshtai - kauchsntai

For those who do not know the Greek. You will read in various commentaries and published data about the antecedent of the “near demonstrative pronoun translated “this”; as you can locate it in the text above in maroon. The participle "having been saved is also in maroon too.

Notice three things: the case in red and gender in brown and number is blue

Grace ----------------------(1) dative in case;---------- (2) feminine is gender ---(3) singular in number

Having been saved ----(1) nominative in case;--- (2) masculine in gender -(3) plural in number

Faith ------------------------(1) genitive in case;------- (2) feminine in gender ---(3) singular in number

This ---- --------------------(1) nominative in case-----(2) neuter in gender ------(3) singular in number

Gift --------------------------(1) nominative in case-----(2) neuter in gender ------(3) singular in number

Continued in next post:

 

continued

The agreement of case, gender and number are seen it the relationship of "this" to "gift". "This gift" is not of works lest anyone should boost. The question is what is "this gift" ? Is it grace, faith, or having been saved or is it a package including all three as some suggest? Grace is never use as being a gift, saving faith is not used as a gift, but salvation is. There is agreement in case of "having been saved" with "this gift" and that being the nominative case. All the evidence of Scripture suggest that the antecedent of this gift is salvation.

Now let’s compare and contrast using the case, gender and number:

First the case: (1) Grace, (2) faith and (3) this are all in different cases, (A) Grace is dative, (B) faith is genitive except that (C) this is nominative, and (D) having been saved is nominative. Notice that C and D agree in case, they are both nominative case. The antecedent of gift is "this" they agree in case, gender and number (nominative case, neuter gender, and singular in number). The normal conclusion would be that "salvation" is the gift. Salvatoin is discribed as a grace gift in Romans 5:15-21. It establishes the truth of Eph. 2:8. When we speak of "grace gift" in this context it is different from that in I Cor. where the Greek term "dora - dora" is not fund but here in Romans both “dora – dora” and "charisma - carisma" are used and explained in verse 17. Verse 17 distinguishes the differences in grace and gift whereby there can be no confusion as to the kind of "gift" salvation is (the gift of righteousness which is also identified as justification). Salvation is undeniably of grace but the dora of that grace is salvation. Grace is the reason salvation is a gift that is received by faith in God's grace.

Second, we compared gender. Both grace and faith are feminine, and “this” is neuter and “having been saved” is masculine. In comparing gender with gender this is not a normal situation. We are left with trying to understand what the antecedent is of “this”. If it had been feminine that would clearly solve only half of the problem theologians have with this verse because the cases do not match, except with the participle nor is there a patter with the use of "this" "touto" in other Scripture that would indicate what it might be more definitively. Generally speaking the antecedent of the near demonstrative pronoun is easily identified but Eph. 2:8 is interesting and thus the wide views on it. It is our earnest belief that the Scripture does not support "believing faith" as a gift, therefore we do not have a compelling reason to make this verse contradict the normal understanding of Scripture.

Third, we compared number. Grace, faith, and "this" are singular and “having been saved is plural” so this agrees in number with grace and faith but not with “having been saved”. “Having been saved agrees with the word that comes before it which is “are” but is translated “you are” this state of being verb, as we would call it, takes on the identity of the participle being verbal and adjectival in function.

 

What will you come up with next? Try to be kind next time and stop the personal attacks. Disagree all you like but stop being pejorative.