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Where oh where is the Sabbath?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by prophecynut, Jun 24, 2005.

  1. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    No, but you are claiming that there must be a statement "Christ our ________ is sacrificed for us" for it to be ended, in order to prove that the weekly sabbaths is not ended. But you cannot find any such statement for the other days either. So your line of reasoning is wrong.
    The day could still be kept with the sacrifice replaced by Christ. That's how the other groups take it.
    And so is the weekly sabbath, pointing forward to the New Creation, and spiritual rest we have.
    Not true. You have not disproven that. What do you think "trumpets" is about?
    And I broke the whole thing down above. All the "heard" was the voice of the trumpet. If this can't be defended, then you do not believe scripture where it conflicts with your arguments.
    It's a summary of the whole Law; Bob.
    That's what you're logic sounds like. If you take "Hr added no more" the way you are, you would think only the Ten were auithoritative.
    Because nobody is trying to force the other laws on the non-believing world!
    He spoke that to Moses, who then relayed it to them. So it was still "TO them", but all they heard, from the Exodus account, was a "trumpet". Remember, if they heard Him, they would die.
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:Bob said
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    The Annnual Sabbaths have their foundation and basis in "animal sacrifice" - this is why we have the statement that "Christ our Passover is SLAIN".

    Are you trying to say that ONLY PASSOVER is based in "animal sacrifice and offerings" that Heb 10 says is ENDED???
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    Actually I am claiming that the HEb 10 statement ALONE ENDS the shadow systems since the sacrifices that form the CORE of those systems are delcared to be ended.

    I simply offer as "proof" the (final nail in the coffin point) that PAUL argues this very thing explicitly in the case of PAssover. This locks in that fact from Heb 10 and SHOWS that this is indeed how that HEB 10 fact applies!

    This takes care of the ANIMAL Sacrifice based services but what about the WORSHIP based service (like Christ the Creator's OWN HOLY DAY - HIS Seventh-day?!!!).

    I am pointing out that you NEED just such an explicit "ENDED" statement for a NON-SACRIFICE based worship service such as God's 4th commandment to find a way to abolish what God ESTABLISHED and CREATED in Gen 2:3 for "ALL MANKIND" having "MADE IT FOR MANKIND" and having declared that EVEN in the NEW EARTH "ALL MANKIND" would come before God to WORSHIP.

    And it is this problem that leaves your POV without any Bible basis to go forward.

    I can keep making this point all day long since in the case of the ANIMAL sacrifices we DO have the HEB 10 END and in the case of Christ the Creator's Holy Day - there is only the VOID of what you "do not have" that you can rely upon.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:Bob said --
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    My second point was just the EQUALLY obvious and simple and basic point that it is interesting that THE unit GOD SINGLES OUT - is THE UNIT MOST often attacked in this world of sin.

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    And of course it is shown "repeatedly" that Deut 5 POINTS that out!!

    Wrong.

    In Lev 18 we see the list of crimes for which the PAGAN (read NON-Believing) world is JUDGED by God. A careful reading the details will SHOW elements of the 613 that they are judged for - that are NOT on the tablets of stone!

    But this is simply misdirection on your part because even IF we did not have Lev 18 showing us that you are wrong - the Deut 5 point would STILL remain where we see GOD MAKING the distinction that you claim is "not allowed".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:
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    I do not deny that it is ALL God's Word and that God spoke that word to Moses. BUT GOD makes a distinction when HE SAYS "And HE ADDED NO MORE" referring to the UNIQUE unit on STONE and SPOKEN TO the Assembly.

    This point is impossible to miss!

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    Wrong.

    The text explicitly mentions JUST THOSE TEN written ON tablets. Just those TEN SPOKEN by God TO The Assembly.

    Every Christian scholar on the planet admits that JUST THOSE TEN are on the stone - JUST those TEN were SPOKEN TO the ASSEMBLY by God.

    IN God's HANDWRITING - IN God's OWN voice!

    Again - you are stuck in a scenario where ALL The scripture evidence for this point is in my favor and you simply have to assert and speculate out of the VOID of what is not in the text!!

    This has got to be discouraging for you at some point.

    But if you need me to keep pointing this out - I am happy to do it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Wrong.

    Deut 5 points out that ONLY the TEN were on STONE and ONLY the TEN spoken TO the Assembly.

    Exodus 20 DOES NOT say "IF we ever hear God say one word we will die".

    Again you are stuck arguing your case out of what the text DOES NOT SAY while ignoring what it DOES SAY!!

    Surely you have some better place to take your stand!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The “TERM” TEN COMMANDMENTs applies ONLY to those words written on stone. A distinct unit – a distinct “name”. They are not called the “613 Commandments”.

    Moses reminds them that they “heard God’s Voice” they HEARD Him “speak”.

    And "yes" this case is even made in Exodus 20 --

    He also points out after listing THE TEN (that He calls THE TEN in chapter 4) that “God added NO more”.

    10 Commandments

    1) Called the "royal law" James 2:8.

    2) Was spoken by God.
    Deuteronomy 4:12, 13.

    3) Was written with the
    finger of God. Exodus 31:18.

    4) Was placed in the ark.
    Exodus 40:20, Hebrew 9:4.

    5) Is to "stand forever and ever.
    Psalms 111:7, 8.

    6) Was not destroyed by Christ.
    Matthew 5:17 & 18.

    7) Written on stone “And God added no more” Deut 5:22

    8) Continued in that UNIT in the NT (Eph 6:1-3) where the fifth commandment is the FIRST in that list ‘with a promise’.
     
  8. Kamoroso

    Kamoroso New Member

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    Genesis 2 2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

    Eric, do you think that it is possible for God to speak without those around Him listening to what He says? Do you think He speaks meaningless, and trifling words? The very act of the creation account reveals the power, and seriousness of the word of God. His word is living and active. He speaks only purity, and truth, and His word brings about the very thing He speaks.

    You think that God blessed and sanctified the seventh day at creation, and then everyone just more or less ignored what He said from that point on, until He spoke the law to Israel. You do not understand the word of God. It is certainly a greater presumption on your part to believe this about God’s words concerning the seventh day at creation, than for me to believe that His word was heard, understood, and acted upon by those who heard it.

    Job 381Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
    4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? 9When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, 10And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, 11And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

    Apparently, all the sons of God were present at creation, and they shouted for joy over it. Do you really believe that God blessed and sanctified the seventh day in front of Adam and Eve, and all the sons of God, and none of them took note of it, and treated it as what God had pronounced it? I believe this is just what you want to believe, so that you can ignore the fourth commandment. Never the less, I am not your judge, God is, and it is by His word that you will be judged not mine.

    Isaiah 55 6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    God’s word is not like mans. When God speaks, the thing is so. The seventh day Sabbath has been a blessed and holy day since the creation of the world. No one can change that, but God alone. Nor do the scriptures anywhere speak of such a change.

    Proverbs 30 4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell? 5Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

    Do you want to be found a liar brother? God blessed and sanctified the day at creation, and it has been so ever since. Will you argue with the God? What would you have done brother, if you were there? Would you really have just treated that day the same as all the rest after hearing God bless and sanctify it? I think not.

    Mark 7 Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    Are you sure brother, that you are not guilty of the above spoken by Jesus? Have you set up your own tradition, or teaching, above the command of God?

    Luke 4 4And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

    Are you living by every word of God, while ignoring the fact that He blessed and sanctified the seventh day? What about your influence upon others to do the same? You know for certain, that God did bless and sanctify the day. Do you know for certain, that He has removed that blessing? If not, should you continue to follow your present course? We must be careful not to add, or take away from God’s word, for the consequences are certainly eternal.

    Hebrews 4 12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

    We will all be judged by the word of God. Moreover, by the way we handle it. It is not here for our speculation. It is here as God’s voice of authority as our creator and sustainer. We are subject to it, it is not subject to our own understanding.

    Hebrews 11 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    There is only one reason to observe the seventh day Sabbath. That is because you believe, that is, have faith in the word of God. He blessed and sanctified the day, the only thing left for us to do, is act as though we believe it. This is why the day of worship we choose is the perfect symbol, or sign if you will, of our faith. There is nothing that distinguishes it from any of the rest, save that God said that it was blessed and sanctified. To observe it as such is purely an act of faith. This is why the two days of worship, the seventh day, or the first day, will become the deciding issue for all mankind. God established one, while man established the other. The bottom line will be, who you put your faith in.

    1 Peter 1 23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

    The word of the Lord endures forever Eric. That includes His words blessing, and sanctifying the seventh day. It doesn’t matter how many people say it isn’t so. God is the only one who can change anything about His word. He has stated however, in no uncertain terms, that His law will not change until heaven and earth pass. Of course, we know that hasn’t happened yet.

    Revelation 19 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    Jesus Christ is the WORD OF GOD. He created the world by His word. He spoke and it stood fast. His commands are pure, and true, and infinitely powerful. They stand forever. We will all be judged by the WORD OF GOD. Just as His word can, and has created, so can, and will His word destroy those who do not submit to it. The WORD OF GOD is salvation to those who believe and submit to it, but it is a sword of destruction to those who resist and ignore it.

    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     
  9. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    He most likely didn't "speak" in any human language; most of the creating was done before man was created, and He didn't speak" on the 7th day, it that is what you are implying. So there was nothing to "hear".
    You're purely speculating. Why don't you believe what the account says, instead of trying to fill in the blanks? It doesn't say how or what this "sabbath" meant to those from Adam's time. (for one thing, the Sons of God (angels) are in Heaven, which is not confined to earth "days"!)
    What we see there, was that man was created perfect, and had perfect union with God. But then He fall, which corrupted his nature to the point that he wanted to run from God, and was separated from Him. Not only that, but he began commiting great wickedness (and "sabbathbreaking" is NEVER mentioned as among the sins!), and eventually forgot God altogether. So we see God raise out of this a nation, and God has to make the remember Him by making them stop their weekly routine (of work, which was made more strenuous by the curse on the ground) to worship Him. This, plus all the other physical works, such as circumcision, sacrifices, Temple trappings. All physical, amd made to separate them and remind them of sin and who God is. That is the theme we see developing from reading the narrative alone. But we now are given something much better: new life in the Spirit.
    No, now the scope is expanded, and every day is holy. This all ultimately was a type of the wntire plan of salvation anyway, with the "Sabbath" being the Millennium of rest, so a day of the week does not have to be "kept" by not working in order for this to be fulfilled. Heb.4 shows how this is fulfilled in u "ceasing from our workS, which is the opposite direction from where you are trying to take us.
    I would have done whatever He said, not try to figure out on my own what He expects of me without Him even sayign a word about it.
    Do you want to be found a liar? Are you keeping the day unto the Lord, or just using it to look down condescendingly at your "brothers" whom you think are keeping one less commandment than you?
    I don't have any tradition. I do not push Sunday. Your doctrine is now more of a "tradition", though it once was something God commanded to some people. Our faith is in Christ, not in a day, anyway. That is worshipping what is created over the Creator Himself.
    And this is the whole point. You come to me loftily, thinking you are living by every word of God, because you keep the one "commandment" that everyone else forgets. Oh WOW! But then, the Armstrongites think you forget the annual days. And the sacred namers think you forget the Creator's true name, Yahweh, substituting the pagan "god". The Shepherd's Rod (Davidians) think you run afoul on the whole truth as well, and the Branch Davidians went the next step beyond them. Where does it stop? How about the fundies here who are insistent on music style, translation, ans degrees of separation? How about Calvinists who say we do not honor God enough by making Him determine individual salvation and damnation? Or the Church of Christ with all their doctrines. Or the Catholics with their "One holy apostolic Church"?
    Do I listen to everyone who comes with some doctrine and says I am not doing enough? Who is right? Or is this being tossed to and fro by every wond of doctrine? Yes, a lot of people are in for a rude awakenng at judgment, and it is those tryiong to one up others wo will be in the worse situation. The Bible clearly states in 1 Timothy 6:3-5 "If any man...consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness [that is, what the Bible clearly defines as godliness], he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words whereof comes envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings. Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth...from such withdraw thyself"
    But that's exactly what you're doing.
    But you believe the rest of it has passed. I can show you where annual sabbaths as well as even the offerings associated with them would also be "FOREVER". You cna't just rip statements like that out, without cheching the overall context, where we see they are conditional. You are warning so much of not being in line with the scripture, but you have not made sure that you really are in line with it.
    Especially those who see to justify themselves by their own works, and judge others (as you judge, you shall be judged).
     
  10. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    People can (and do) still argue that the DAYS themselves are still in effect, with the sacrifices removed. You are not disproving this. Once again, we are not still looking back to the old creation, which was completed on the 7th day. yet you believe the day is still in effect. If you were consistent, the same would apply to the annual days.
    Hebrews 4 gives it a new spiritual meaning. Paul tells us not to judge or let others judge us over it. You just explain these away anyway, so what's the use.
    Those are universal laws that were alway expected of everyone. (they are apart of the Noahide set). They weren't expounded upon in the 10, but would fall under "adultery".
    Anyway, it wasn't me making this distinction of importance between the 10 and the 613, but rather you.
    I don't need you to tell me how I feel. Of course, you would be happy, because you think you're proving your one-up over us.
    Looking back over Deut.5, I see where v.23-26 would support your point. But I find it funny that you and Keith NOT ONCE quoted these verses. You relied solely on v.22 and Exodus, which by themselves only point to GOd speaking THROUGH Moses. (so you could have had no proof at all, but still arguing your case nevertheless). Even still, it is possible that the "voice" they heard was the trumpet. In other words, they could only hear God's voice in the distance as a trumpet. I don't know. Even so, the only reason God didn't speak the rest of it to them, was because they begged Him not to. So that has nothing to do with one set of commandments being inferir to the other.

    But all of this is not even important. I am so sorry we have gone off onto this tangent. It does nto prove your point. The whole context of this is you trying to justify keeping the weekly sabbath, but not the annual sabbaths. So you come up with this "on the Ten were eternal, because they were written in stone and spoken to the Congregation". But that does not say that only the ones written in stone or spoken to all would last forever, and the others would end. You even still keep the others. You don't believe the ones in Lev.18 are ended, do you? (all sorts of incest and homosexuality are now OK?) And then, you yesterday vigorously deny making the Ten the only ones He cares about, and accuse me of "spinning" your words that way! So you're arguing NOTHING! Just admit that you have picked and chosen which commands you will keep. Fine. Keep them unto the Lord. Just don;t judge everyone esle over them!
    No one said they were, but the 613 hang on the 10, just like the 10 hang on the 2.
    So does that nullify dietary laws, incest, homosexuality, blood and strangled animals, tithing, and EVERY thing not listed in the Ten? Just what are you suggesting. Does God care less about these things after all?
    HOLD IT RIGHT THERE! These verses do NOT specify "The TEN Commandments!" You have added that out of nowhere! they say "The LAW"; which meant the WHOLE THING!
    RThis is a slick game you all are playing, because in passages like this, you define "law" as the Ten commandments, but in passages saying the Law is superseded, you say that is only the rest of the 613. So you shift and change it at will, to your convenience, and think you;re really winning some argument in truth! Sorry, but that don't go around here. And you two talk about "every word of God!" :rolleyes:
    Right away, this argument is demolished by Christ, because notice that not only are two of the 10 commandments there, but also "divorce", and "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", and "you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy". These are not from the 10, but from the 613! Even "you shall not forswear thyself" and "whosover shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" were detailed variations from the 613, expounding on the ten.
    You're reading way too much into those. Rather than taking them in their context, you are building a theology off of them where you try to justify your judging others over a law you keep, and rebuff the judgments of those who keep more of the laws than you. This is not what those passages are teaching. A "unit" is REFERRED TO; it's for reference , not maintained as being in full effect in the Letter.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:Bob said
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    Actually I am claiming that the HEb 10 statement ALONE ENDS the shadow systems since the sacrifices that form the CORE of those systems are delcared to be ended.

    I simply offer as "proof" the (final nail in the coffin point) that PAUL argues this very (sacrifice oriented)thing explicitly in the case of PAssover. This locks in that fact from Heb 10 and SHOWS that this is indeed how that HEB 10 fact applies!

    This takes care of the ANIMAL Sacrifice based services but what about the WORSHIP based service (like Christ the Creator's OWN HOLY DAY - HIS Seventh-day?!!!).
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    "People" also argue for praying to the dead and purgatory.

    How does this help your case?

    BTW - Paul HIMSELF continued to observe passover and the other feasts. I am not arguing that they CAN NOT do it - I am arguing that the BASIS for the feasts is removed. As Romans 14 points out - they are certainly free to "OBSERVE" all those annual Feastival days or they may choose to observe "ONE" of them over another.

    I am not trying to "disprove" that some people continue to do as they please.

    I am also not trying to "disprove" that they are ALLOWED to "OBSERVE" ALL those annual feast days if they wish.

    My only point is the obvious one that the ANIMAL sacrifice IS THE CORE in each of them as we SEE in Lev 23. And so as Paul said "CHRIST OUR PASSOVER IS SLAIN" showing how the SHADOW with its animal sacrifice points to the SLAYING of the Messiah.

    Just pointing out the obvious.

    I can show that Heb 10 deletes the animal sacrifice and can show that the annual sabbaths don't have an "observance" specifice WITHOUT one so that Paul is CORRECT in the case of Passover when he says "CHrist our PASSOVER" is slain.

    The "Old Creation"??? This world is the SAME ONE created in Gen 1-2!!

    This role of Christ as Creator is STILL to be honored according to John 1 and Col 1.

    In fact in the end-time judgment hour message of the ONE GOSPEL we see in Rev 14 the "EVERLASTING GOSPEL" message of the FIRST angel is "FEAR God and give HIM Glory for the hour of His judgment has come. WORSHIP HIM who CREATED the heavens and the earth the sea and ..."

    It makes the VERY ARGUMENT you try to delete.

    The annual animal-sacrifice days MADE HOLY days in Lev 23 were not MADE HOLY DAYS in Gen 2:3 because there were NO Animal sacrifices then. And clearly they are not defined until Lev 23. NEITHER does the LANGUAGE used in defining them refer back to Gen 1 or Gen 2 PREFALL.

    This is all so obvious that you need to obfuscate and spin "a considerable amount" to muster up an argument.

    While I recognize you for the effort you make to do so - I don't see the point.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:
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    Wrong.

    In Lev 18 we see the list of crimes for which the PAGAN (read NON-Believing) world is JUDGED by God. A careful reading the details will SHOW elements of the 613 that they are judged for - that are NOT on the tablets of stone!

    But this is simply misdirection on your part because even IF we did not have Lev 18 showing us that you are wrong - the Deut 5 point would STILL remain where we see GOD MAKING the distinction that you claim is "not allowed".

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    Few if any (except for murder) are mentioned in the UNIT of TEN. My point remains - the UNIT OF TEN is explicitly identified BY GOD who Calls THEM "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS" and nothing else.

    God writes THEM on tablets of stone - and "Adds no more".

    God speaks THEM to the "Assempbly" and "Adds no more".

    God's OWN choice to isolate THEM is seen in the fact that only THEY are placed INSIDE the ark!

    As shown in Lev 18 this does not mean that only THEY are inspired or law - but it does mean that God "obviously" singled THEM out!!

    This again is so incredibly obvious that it is taking a huge amount of effort on your part to obfuscate and spin so as to muster an argument in response. I ask again "what is the point"??

    Why not just accept these obvious points and take your stand on something with a bit more promise to it??

    You are just giving me the option of repeatedly pointing out "the obvious" that is actually IN the text!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:
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    The “TERM” TEN COMMANDMENTs applies ONLY to those words written on stone. A distinct unit – a distinct “name”.

    They are not called the “613 Commandments”.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The argument above is not about "hanging" it is about the unique facts actually IN Scripture that point to God's UNIT being NAMED, SPOKEN to the assembly, HAND WRITTEN and SEPARATED from the rest of the Law.

    The point remains.

    (Pretending to forget the point is not helping your position).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:Bob said
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    Deut 5 points out that ONLY the TEN were on STONE and ONLY the TEN spoken TO the Assembly.

    Exodus 20 DOES NOT say "IF we ever hear God say one word we will die".

    Again you are stuck arguing your case out of what the text DOES NOT SAY while ignoring what it DOES SAY!!

    Surely you have some better place to take your stand!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    WE are not trying to obfuscate the point. We are simply pointing out that the Exodus 20 "event" happened as recorded and that in Deut 5 Moses points out about the TEN that God "added no MORE".

    The point is impossible to miss.

    It applies to THE TEN.

    Only THEY are written on stone.

    Only THEY are spoken BY God TO the ASSEMBLY.

    ONLY THEY are placed inside the ark.

    The point remains.

    Wrong "again".

    Deut 4 and 5 make it clear that GOD is the one "speaking the TEN and ONLY the TEN TO the assembly". Every Bible scholar on the planet admits to this.

    Why you have picked such an indefensible spot to make your stand is beyond me.

    Since the majority would agree with you in finding a way to abolish Christ the Creator's day - why not find some point that is generally accepted by Bible students?? Why jump off this cliff trying to build a case for "GOD added no MORE than the 613" when the text says CLEARLY that THESE are the ones WRITTEN on Stone BY GOD! Spoken BY God TO The Assembly and NOT "through Moses" in fact Moses ARGUES that they HEARD the voice of God.

    HE does not argue "through ME you HEARD the voice of God".

    God SPOKE the Ten TO the Assembly!!

    Obviously.

    "again".

    "Pretending" again?

    My points have been "the obvious". Just the basic and "simple" obvious points.

    #1. God SPOKE the TEN - ALONE - TO the Assembly. The rest were spoken TO Moses and given to the Assembly.

    #2. God WROTE the TEN ALONE on Tablets of stone. The rest were written by Moses and given TO the assemply.

    #3. God instructed that the TEN ALONE be placed INSIDE the ark - the REST were placed BESIDE the ark.

    THIS SHOWS that God HIMSELF makes the DISCINCTION with the unit of TEN!

    No need to obfuscate as if this point is ALSO trying to say that God did not care for the inspired Word given to Moses and WRITTEN as scripture.

    The simple unnavoidable point is GOD HIMSELF established the unique and distinct UNIT OF TEN.

    #2. IT is THAT UNIT that the traditions of man most directly attack and "downsize".

    (Just in case you feel the need to pretend not to remember the focus for this basic point)

    That is the bigger argument. I start with a simple and "obvious" point that God HIMSELF establishes, identifies and isolates the UNIT OF LAW - the TEN Commandments as unique.

    "AND HE added NO MORE"

    You have been incredibly motivated to take that first obvious and unndeniable point of scripture and fall on your sword denying it.

    What is the point of that???


    True. This first point is SIMPLY to point out GOD's EXPLICIT action in ISOLATING, NAMING, WRITING, SPEAKING this unit of TEN in a "Shake the mountain scare the people when you speak the TEN" kinda way.

    HAVING firmly established this TREATMENT of the TEN by God (in actual facts undeniable and LISTED in scripture) I then go one to show that the well-established God-ordained UNIT is referenced by Paul in Eph 6 and Romans 7 and by James in JAmes 2.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Nope - I do not argue this as proof that all other laws end.

    The point is that this WELL DEFINED UNIT so clearly labeled, written, spoken and isolated by God IS REFERENCED in the NT as that WELL known UNIT that it is.

    A simple point - but I wanted to be careful.

    True enough - I have been making these abvious point about the obvious UNIT God established -- but not so I could do a bunch of 'hand waiving" and pretend that no other scripture matters.

    My reason for wanting to point out the obvious establishing of the UNIT is to then SEE how the UNIT is used by the NT Jewish writers of the NT.


    You have to carefully ignore the details in my argument to make up that story.

    My argument for which ones we do NOT keep is based in the EXPLICIT ENDING we see in Heb 10 for the animal sacrifices IT IS NOT based on the fact that the Ten Commandments are INSIDE the ark!

    I have never argued "The Annual Sabbaths are no longer to be kept because the Ten Commandments were a UNIT that did not include Lev 23". In fact WERE I to make such a silly argument I would then have to VOID the Lev 23 annual Sabbaths IN LEV 23!! Since AT THAT TIME they were ALREADY "not" part of the Ten Commandments!

    You are simply creating an horrible contrivance of an argument for "me" as a "easy strawman" for us BOTH to attack!!

    I freely attack that straw man WITH you - but it does nothing for our discussion.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:Bob said
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    He also points out after listing THE TEN (that He calls THE TEN in chapter 4) that “God added NO more”.

    10 Commandments

    1) Called the "royal law" James 2:8.

    2) Was spoken by God.
    Deuteronomy 4:12, 13.


    3) Was written with the
    finger of God. Exodus 31:18.


    4) Was placed in the ark.
    Exodus 40:20, Hebrew 9:4.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Nope.

    "Again" it merely establishes the existence of the UNIT as a named, isolated, distinct unit of Law.


    quote: Bob said
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    5) Is to "stand forever and ever.
    Psalms 111:7, 8.

    6) Was not destroyed by Christ.
    Matthew 5:17 & 18.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That is true - but they would at a minimum have to INCLUDE the Ten. This is particularly true in the case of Matt 5.

    Psalms 111 - must also include this supreme UNIT of TEN at the very least. Whatever ELSE you want to include in that - is fine.


    No games. I think you would have to agree that Matt 5 and Psalms 111 DO reference the LAW and the COMMANDMENTS - and that the UNIT OF TEN being the supreme Spoken,written-by-God, isolated and NAMED unit must at the very least be INCLUDED.

    "Again" you suppose that to HONOR God's TEN commandment UNIT one must IGNORE the rest of scripture and ABOLISH all other Law.

    This has never been my argument.

    You keep dragging it out out of the dust -- but you are the author of that argument not me. So when you repeatedly knock it down - it is your own argument you are defeating not mine.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:Bob said --
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    7) Written on stone “And God added no more” Deut 5:22

    8) Continued in that UNIT in the NT (Eph 6:1-3) where the fifth commandment is the FIRST in that list ‘with a promise’.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    #1. The quote says nothing about judging others -- except to the extent that PAUL is judging others for NOT keeping the 5th commandment.

    #2. The quote SHOWS that the Jewish NT author would be SEEING THE UNIT when HE says "THIS IS THE FIRST commandment WITH a promise". This is obviously true of the UNIT OF TEN but is not true of the 613.

    #3. The text of Eph 6 SHOWS that Paul does NOT simply say "HEY! I am a pretty important guy and so I SAY Honor your father and mother and THAT should be enough for you to do it". Rather Paul "consistently" reaches out "TO SCRIPTURE" as his authorotative source and so we see him doing it AGAIN in Eph 6 with the UNIT of TEN EVEN pointing out the "relationship" of the 5th commandment WITHIN the ENTIRE UNIT!!

    Again - just making a note of this simple obvious point.

    Not trying to swallow the whole enchalada.


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

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    [​IMG]

    I have not looked in on the board since June 30, and when I do, this discussion is still going on!!

    It occurs to me that when so many people try and disprove the Sabbath that God set up for all mankind, (not just the Jews) there must be a good reason.

    I believe the reason is that Satan is afraid that the people will begin to have the scales pulled from their eyes and reilize that the Sabbath (Sat) is the day to worship and then all would be lost to the devil and his demons.

    Think about it folks, why fight so hard against it if it is just a silly thing someone came up with.

    For those who are kicking against it, time to take a break and think it over.

    Selah,

    Tam
     
  19. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    But nobody was keeping only one of them. And it says nothing about feast days, but rather just a distinction of some days being special, or all days being "alike".
    How it helps my case is that the same arguments you are using can be used by those insisting we must keep the annual days. so some people argue for praying to the dead and purgatory, some argue for annua and weekly sabbaths, and some argue for weekly only. all read their practice intot he bible (or if it is too unbiblical, then they read "unwritten tradition" into the Bible!) so you're not saying anything that anyone else is not sayin. You think what you keep is mandatory, and what you don't keep is optional, and find passages to justify it, and so do they.
    The sacrifice may be over, but if ceasing fom physical work on a day called a "sabbath" is still in effect, that can and should still be practiced on those annual sabbaths, if one is consistent that "the Law never passes"!
    Yes; and it's passing, and is not what we are looking ahead to.
    Yes, it is an unchangeable fact that He created this present world. That is an unalterable fact about HIM; the focus is on HIM; not the creation! But we now look farward to the NEW creation He promises.
    Their past origina has no bearing on anything. They ALL were said to be "forever", so if God can still set one "eternal" ordinance aside in this new covenant, He can do so with any of them.
    You repeat "what is in the text", but still add what you think it implies. None of this proves which continue today and which can be superseded.
    They DO hang on one another; like all hang on the two. The TWO is the eternal "unit", and all your wrangling about the Ten is proving nothing. Once again, the Ten were addressed specifically to ISRAEL who was brought by God out of Egypt.
    It still doesn't prove that only the Ten were eternal.
    That's not what I was saying. What I was saying was that the ten reporesented the whole set. Like look at the very first one after the Ten He gives (v.23) "you shall not make with Me gods of silver, neither gods of gold. Is this one abolished because it was not on the stone, while the first two on stone are still in effect? Of course not! They are saying the same thing; only the ones outside the Ten were more detailed! He could not put all of the details on those two stone tablets! And once again, He would have spoken the whole thing to the assembly if they hadn't begged Him not to. So your point may "remain", but it doesn;t say a thing!
    This still does not say anything. Proving a "unit" does not prove that every single point on that unit is eternal, in the LETTER. Because the ten-point unit (which was addressed to Israel) hangs ont he TWO point unit, which Christ says is the true eternal Law.
    But you keep some of the other laws. You are falling on your own sword, because you are inconsistent. You are picking and choosing which laws you will keep. Now either ONLY that unit of Ten is eternal, and the REST are abolished because "He added no more" than that, or the WHOLE LAW is eternal (and you are rightly judged for not keeping the annual days) or the whole letter of the Law is abolished, and only the universal two are eternal (which includes some of the perinciples that were in both the ten and the 613), in which case you are wrong for judging others over the weekly sabbath, which as instructed in the Ten, was addreessed to Israel only.
    But that is a REFERENCE, for the sake of familarity. This does not say that all ten were still in effect as a unit. Clearly, we are pointed to the unit of the two.
    Once again; your line of argumentation is always based on a very indirect "a=b=c=d", and that doesn't always work. There is no place in the NT where the sabbath is expected of anyone, or where it is "assumed" that is was clearly known that it was expected because it was in that unit of ten (so it "went without saying"), or any judgment for not keeping it. So it's everything but clear proof. "It was made in Gen.1"; "It was made for man"; "It was written in stone"; "It was thundered directly to the people" "He added no more, so I don't have to keep the annual sabbaths too"; "It is an eternal unit because some are mentioned in the NT" "A prophecy of the end time uses a phrase about God's creative attribute that the sabbath command also uses" (falsely interpreted as "quoting from" the command; as if the angel couldn't come right out and say that sabbathbreaking was the final issue of rebellion), and "It is mentioned in the New earth".
    Bases solely on the sheer number of inferences, you think you have such a "clear" issue that we are all blinded for not quitting our jobs tomorrow and recognizing "Christ the Creator's holy day". I'm sorry, but you have everything there but any proof that it is still in effect. Some doctrines may be built by inference (and I think people do get carried away with this), but nothing that important. No other clear command has to be proven with all those inferences alone. God is very straight forward with what He wants from us. A million of these innuendoes cannot really prove anything, but people think it does, and you can "prooftext" any doctrine like that.
     
  20. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Because it was a summary of the whole LAw. That does not prove that every point is still tobe kept in the letter today.
    Then why did this whole argument come up then? You are the pone who started arguing that only the ten were in stone and in the ark when confronted with the annual sabbaths. That is the argument SDA's always use for that.
    True, nbut if it's not excluding the others, then you shouldn;t use it in your argument as to why you don;t have to keep some of the others. If it does include the others, then you are revealed as just as much as a debtor as everyone else!
    It still does not prove that only the unit of ten were eternal, while the other might not be. They were familiar, and could still be cited.
     
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