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Where oh where is the Sabbath?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by prophecynut, Jun 24, 2005.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And orthodox Jews would accuse me of accepting the wrong fulfillment and reading the wrong Bible.

    And Atheist Evolutionists would accuse me of believing in a creator that does not exist.

    ...etc.

    Equivocating between my argument against your position and theirs against me is not helping you make your argument - it does not address any actual "fact" in our set of differences.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:
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    See Exodus 23 for a list of the THREE required feasts each year.

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    Here again you ignore the Jews, all scholarship and scripture to make your point. The fact is - everyone admits that the Ex 23 list were the mandatory days and Lev 23 is the complete set of "ALL" days.

    When Christ was asked IF he was going to the feast He said "I am not going" but then later went. Participation at the feasts was not "a given" pre-cross among the jews.

    This is not an "Adventist" point.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Indeed because they place value on either ONE day or on ALL days. The one who places value only on ONE day is NOT observing ALL the days in the list!!

    There is no such thing as a limited choice such that "One can only OBSERVE ONE of the Lev 23 days or NONE of them" as you suggest. You are going into pure speculation having lost all basis of fact for your point!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You missed the point. You have "invented" and either-or fallacy that claims that the ONLY choice was to OBSERVE ONE of the feast days OR to observe NONE. But I am pointing out that in both pre-cross and post-cross times THEY WERE observing MORE THAN ONE! I also point out that OBSERVING ALL was another practice that they had (and you seem to argue the same point "against yourself" as well). So observing ALL meant OBSERVING ALL. Observing ONE above ANOTHER refere to picking ANY SET (from 1 to 6) within the SEVEN and observing them ABOVE the remainder in the Seven.

    BOTH are examples of OBSERVING. Neither is an example of "having NO regard for ANY of them".


    Read Exodus 23.

    See John Gill on Luke 2:41 -
    http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/luke/gill/luke2.htm

    Again -- this is not an Adventist point about there only being 3 mandatory feasts and even these were not mandatory for the women.

    (Just pointing out Biblical fact and the fact as practiced in pre-Cross Orthodoxy among the Jews)

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:
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    ??? Is there a point to this?

    Vs 5 "One esteems one day ABOVE another while another esteems ALL" vs 6 "SO The one who OBSERVES the day OBSERVES it for the Lord"!!

    Are you trying to split these verses into separate topics? Chapters? books?

    Do you have a way of arguing that they don't go together? That they are not talking about the SAME thing? Vs 5 shows that value is being placed on the day and vs 6 shows that this means the person is actually OBSERVING it.

    What is "not to get"??? Are you just grasping at straws??
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You have yet to make a point. If Rom 14:5-6 are talking about OBSERVING the days based on having VALUE for those days - then what is "your" point???

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:
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    Also you try to twist the SAME word in Vs 5 from "VALUE and ESTEEM" in the case of ONE day -- to "NOT value and NOT ESTEEM" in the case of ALL.

    So that valuing/esteeming ONE results in OBSERVING one - but value and esteem for ALL results in OBSERVE NONE!!!

    That form of logic twisting inserted INTO the text has to be done from previous bias - it is not IN the text!
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    They "esteem" the day. The text does NOT argue "they have no esteem for the day" as you seem to want to insert.

    Notice how it actually reads --

    The result is that EITHER they are regarding some of the days above the others or they have esteem for ALL.
     
  6. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    The imagery of Christ on the Sabbath loosing a victim bound by Satan's bonds (lk 13:16), recalls Christ's announcement of His mission "to proclaim release to the captives" (lk 4:18; Isa. 61:1-3).

    The liberation of a daughter of Abraham from the bonds of Satan on the Sabbath represents the fulfillment of the Messianic typology of the day.


    We have in Jesus' healings on the Sabbath, not only acts of love, compassion and mercy, but true "sabbatical acts", acts which show that the Messianic Sabbath, the fulfillment of the Sabbath rest of the OT, has broken into our world. Therefore, the Sabbath, of all days, is the most appropriate for healing.


    The fulfillment by Christ of the OT Sabbath symbology does not imply, that we are free from the Sabbath to gather on the first day, but rather that Christ by fulfilling the redemptive typology of the Sabbath made the day a permanent fitting memorial of the reality, namely, His redemptive mission.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Sabbath of Gen 2:3 was not given to remind Adam of the redemptive role of God the Son in dying for his sins - rather it was given to mankind to remind us of God's role as Creator.

    However after the fall we see the ADDED value placed on Sabbath as it reminds us of God's Work of salvation completed in Christ and that we rest in Him. We now have TWO reasons for honoring Christ the Creator's day!

    How odd that human nature would seek to abolish it via tradition.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    You're still confusing attending of the "feast" by MALES with the days themselves. They were still SABBATHS, that had to be KEPT by all; whether they went to the feast or not. And the very fact that attendance of the ceremony was optional disproves your earlier argument that these days had no application apart ofrom sacrifice ritual.
    Nobody did any such thing. Once again, even if a person opted not to attend a feast, he still had to KEEP ("observe") the day in some fashion.
    No, even to not observe the day is a form of "esteeming" it. Esteem can be high or low. If they don't observe it, they "esteem" it as an ordinary, insignificant day. Weekly and annual sabbaths were "esteemed" ABOVE it!
    Nobody in this point of the discussion is pushing for any Sunday tradition, and nowhere does Christ's actions "make" it "permanent". Christ did good, redemptive works on any day of the week.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:Bob said --
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    The Sabbath of Gen 2:3 was not given to remind Adam of the redemptive role of God the Son in dying for his sins - rather it was given to mankind to remind us of God's role as Creator.

    However after the fall we see the ADDED value placed on Sabbath as it reminds us of God's Work of salvation completed in Christ and that we rest in Him. We now have TWO reasons for honoring Christ the Creator's day!

    How odd that human nature would seek to abolish it via tradition.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I think I "already mentioned D.L. Moody's POV".

    The other points in that quote from above above - also remain. I assume you are in agreement with them since you did not object?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:
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    Annual Trip to Jerusalem for Passover (2:41)
    "Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover." (2:41)
    Theoretically, Jewish men were required to go to three feasts in Jerusalem each year -- Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles -- though only the Passover was strictly observed. Those at some distance, especially the poor, could not attend all the feasts. But women -- and sometimes children -- might attend, too.[4] Passover celebrated God delivering the people of Israel from slavery in Egypt, and pilgrims to the feast would stay a minimum of two days, sometimes longer.

    http://www.jesuswalk.com/lessons/2_39-52.htm

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    See John Gill on Luke 2:41 -
    http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/luke/gill/luke2.htm

    Again -- this is not an Adventist point about there only being 3 mandatory feasts and even these were not mandatory for the women.

    (Just pointing out Biblical fact and the fact as practiced in pre-Cross Orthodoxy among the Jews)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You keep "Trying to avoid the point" instead of responding to it -- why?

    The point was to show that even BEFORE the cross it was customary to value "esteem" some of those annual Sabbaths OVER the others -- required to go to 3 of the 7 but not all 7.

    Other may well have attended ALL - esteemed ALL -- had high regard for ALL and observed ALL.

    You 'claimed' earlier that they were either keeping ALL or none -- but this practice IN SCRIPTURE - SHOWS that even before the cross there was a practice of selecting some (3) within the seven (ALL).

    Instead of responding to this point - you seem to be off on another tangent about annual Sabbaths being observed WITHOUT animal sacrifice in some mythical way. Read Lev 23 for the DETAILS of how they were observed. The sacrifices were needed.

    The Sacrifices and offerings of Heb 10 were NEEDED for they were the central part of those services.

    My only point was that people DID "esteem" (to the point of OBSERVE) some of those days OVER other.


    If you can show how they can offer sacrifices some place "other" than the temple - please do so - from scripture - post Sinai.

    Otherwise this is yet "another" rabbit trail.

    The point remains - after the cross the annual Sabbaths are all optional - and yet as we see in the case of Paul himself - some Christians would still choose to observe at least some of those days.

    Romans 14 allows for both the one who observes ONE of those Lev 23 annual Sabbaths OVER another -- and ALSO allows for the one who chooses to "esteem ALL of them".

    Certainly from the standpoint of one who is strictly "observing ALL" of them - the one who is only observing "ONE OVER the others" appears to "NOT OBSERVE" on those days they ignore.

    But since Heb 10 deletes the service (in its sacrifices and offerings) for those annual Sabbaths - it does not matter that they customarily drop or retain observance of those annual Sabbaths. Either way is fine!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You missed the point. You have "invented" an either-or fallacy that claims that the ONLY choice was to OBSERVE ONE of the feast days OR to observe NONE. But I am pointing out that in both pre-cross and post-cross times THEY WERE observing MORE THAN ONE! I also point out that OBSERVING ALL was another practice that they had (and you seem to argue the same point "against yourself" as well). So observing ALL meant OBSERVING ALL. Observing ONE above ANOTHER refere to picking ANY SET (from 1 to 6) within the SEVEN and observing them ABOVE the remainder in the Seven.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Again you missed the point.

    #1. Since even you agree that there would be some people even BEFORE the cross OBSERVING ALL - it is not surprising that some of those people AFTER the cross - may elect to continue to OBSERVE ALL!! How can you possibly be missing this???

    #2. As for their having ANY observance of sacrifices AWAY From the temple - please show it. Show where they are staying home and observing ALL the feasts at home. In fact in Ezra and Nehemiah's time the point is made about the annual Sabbaths that they were NOT BEING observed during the time the people could not come to Jerusalem!!

    So you have a lot of "proving" to do.

    But even if you could show that they had a way to observe ALL even if AWAY from the temple - it only compounds your problem since you are trying to invent an either-or fallacy in the case of Rom 14:5-6 where "observing ALL" the annual feast Sabbaths of Lev 23 is not even AN OPTION!

    Yet it is the most obvious and logical option of ALL!

    #3. The point remains that in vs 5 having ESTEEM for the day results in the day being OBSERVED. So esteeming one day OVER others results in OBSERVING that one day but not the others. Having esteem FOR ALL - results in the practice you are arguing for ABOVE -- the very likely practice of Christians who are ALREADY accustomed to observing ALL - CONTINUING to observe ALL.

    AGain - I fail to see how you could be fighting these points - even to the result of confusing your own argument.

    In CHrist,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:
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    BOTH are examples of OBSERVING. Neither is an example of "having NO regard for ANY of them".
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    quote:
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    You have yet to make a point. If Rom 14:5-6 are talking about OBSERVING the days based on having VALUE for those days - then what is "your" point???
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    quote:
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    They "esteem" the day. The text does NOT argue "they have no esteem for the day" as you seem to want to insert.

    Notice how it actually reads --

    The result is that EITHER they are regarding some of the days above the others or they have esteem for ALL.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I see so "esteem" is taken to mean "They esteem one of the Lev 23 days ABOVE the others -- keeping ONE of the feasts but NOT the others - OR they DO NOT esteem ANY OF THEM as having value".

    What a nice "twist of the text".

    IN the mean time the text actually says "ONE man esteems one day ABOVE another while another man ESTEEMS ALL".

    A greater contradiction of your 'needed point' could not be imagined!

    But even more devastating -- your either-or fallacy LIMITS the choice to EITHER keeping ONE of the Lev 23 annual Sabbaths (esteeming ONE of them but not any of the others)

    OR

    KEEPING NONE of them in a silly kind of "esteem that is NO esteem" for any.

    In other words you claim that it was not even AN OPTION to "observe ALL"!! To actually "esteem ALL"!!

    How sad that while you attempt to argue that the MOST LIKELY practice is that they ESTEEMED ALL (OBSERVED ALL) before the Cross -- these Jewish Christians would NOT EVEN ALLOW that as an option AFTER the cross. RAther they would only allow OBSERVING SOME or NONE of the days of LEv 23!!!

    How "Strained" your position is???!!

    Why are you climbing out on that limb?? What is it buying you??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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  14. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Who's "avoiding and not responding", and leading on a rabbit trail? You make up your own idea of what "esteem" is, and I explain it, and how the person who keeps no days are esteeming them all. (He has an OPINION or ESTIMation on them: they are all alike!), and you ignore it and just rehash your own unproven theory of how this is talking about some people keeing some of the annual days only. You cannot show any proof from the TEXT of how this is some versus all of the annual days; except for the rationale "well, esteeming all must not mean keeping none, so this must be the some limited body of days; let's just make it the annual sabbaths so we can spare the weekly sabbath from being made something not to judge over".
    So then you admit that it was possible to "keep none" in the passage. You have been ruling out that option the whole time, making it a posible choice of only "some" or "all".
    What are you talking about? Who said anythign about "pre-Cross" or "post-cross". Talk about "rabbit trails" and "tangents"! Before the Cross, all Jews were mandated to keep all days, whether the males went and attended all 7 or only the 3. after the Cross, none of them were any longer mandatory, but some tried to force them on others.
    No, YOU went down this whole tangent to try to explain how people kept "SOME" days only. And I showed you how all 7 days were still SABBATHS, so even if the males did not go and attend the feast, they still were not free to just ignore the day. They still had to KEEP the sabbath, and if they opted not to go to the Temple, then they did not offer any sacrifice on those days! But they still could do no work on them! So you can't say "They did not keep all of the days, and thus 'observed' or 'esteemed' some OVER the others". There was a way all days had to be kept.
    Who ever said "ALL" was not an option? In the NT, you could keep all, some or none. It's your argument that "esteem=observe, so you can either observe all or some" that leaves observing none as not an option! You are misunderstanding everything I say. It is not "They esteem one of the Lev 23 days ABOVE the others -- keeping ONE of the feasts but NOT the others - OR they DO NOT esteem ANY OF THEM as having value". It is "they esteem some days--weekly or annual ABOVE all the other days of the week or year, or they esteem all days as equal" (which in your words equals "observes none").
    You're overgeneralizing the meaning of "esteem" to ALWAYS equal "observe". This is a COMPARISON of days. If one is "ABOVE" another, then the "estimation" is one of observing. If it is "all days [alike]", then the ESTIMATION is that of normal days that are not special. I'm not confusing my argument; you are, because you cannot admit that the scope of Rom.14 includes weekly sabbath "days".
     
  15. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    23:1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying,
    23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which all of you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
    23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; all of you
    shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
    23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which all of you shall proclaim in their
    seasons.
    23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.
    23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven
    days all of you must eat unleavened bread.
    23:7 In the first day all of you shall have an holy convocation: all of you shall do no servile work therein.
    23:8 But all of you shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: all of you shall do no servile work therein.
    23:9 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying,
    23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When all of you be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then all of you shall bring a sheaf of the first-fruits of your harvest unto the priest:
    23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the next day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
    23:12 And all of you shall offer that day when all of you wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
    23:13 And the food offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made
    by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
    23:14 And all of you shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the very same day that all of you have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
    23:15 And all of you shall count unto you from the next day after the sabbath, from the day that all of you
    brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
    23:16 Even unto the next day after the seventh sabbath shall all of you number fifty days; and all of you
    shall offer a new food offering unto the LORD.
    23:17 All of you shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals; they shall be of fine
    flour; they shall be baked with leaven; they are the first-fruits unto the LORD.
    23:18 And all of you shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young
    bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their food offering, and their
    drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD.
    23:19 Then all of you shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year
    for a sacrifice of peace offerings.
    23:20 And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the first-fruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.
    23:21 And all of you shall proclaim on the very same day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: all of you shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
    23:22 And when all of you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not make clean purging of the corners of your field when you reap, neither shall you gather any gleaning of your harvest: you shall leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.
    23:23 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying,
    23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall all of you have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
    23:25 All of you shall do no servile work therein
    : but all of you shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
    23:26 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying,
    23:27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and all of you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
    23:28 And all of you shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
    23:29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
    23:30 And whatsoever soul it be that does any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
    23:31 All of you shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
    23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and all of you shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall all of you celebrate your sabbath
    .
    23:33 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying,
    23:34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of
    tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD.
    23:35 On the first day shall be an holy convocation: all of you shall do no servile work therein.
    23:36 Seven days all of you shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and all of you shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a
    solemn assembly; and all of you shall do no servile work therein
    .
    23:37 These are the feasts of the LORD, which all of you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a food offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:
    23:38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which all of you give unto the LORD.
    23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when all of you have gathered in the fruit of the land, all of you shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
    23:40 And all of you shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and all of you shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
    23:41 And all of you shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: all of you shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
    23:42 All of you shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths: 23:43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
    23:44 And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That is correct -- this is not a "Seventh-day Adventist" distinctive! It is found in scripture and is known to all Bible scholars!
     
  17. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Does this commentary wipe out that whole chapter posted above showing that all 7 days had mandatory oblgations for all? No; Deut. does not conflict Lev. All days had mandatory observance; and three of them had an additional requirement for males. What is "voluntary" for women is "go[ing] up" (to those three feasts). Read you own quotes more carefully! So that commentary, and claims of what all Bible scholars know; proves nothing.
     
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