Where's the Beef: faith/BAG or BAG/Faith

Just as you will find Arminians disagree within themselves over particular interpretations on a text of Scripture, so you will find within the Reformed Theology group.

In regards to Ephesians 2:8, there are Reformed theologians who see "this" as referring to "faith", and others who believe that "this" refers to "by grace are ye saved through faith" (i.e. salvation and all that it entails, from God's quickening a sinner to that sinner's faith).

It is wrong to say that ALL those who hold to RT argue in favour of limiting "this" to a reference to "faith".

But taking the point you are making, it still does not disprove Reformed Theology, but strengthens it, because your arguments is that EVERYTHING about salvation is the gift of God, and if it is God's gift, it originates with Him.

In other words, you may argue against "faith" being the sole reference of "this" (and many Calvinists would even agree!), but you CANNOT DISMISS AND REMOVE FAITH FROM BEING A GIFT THAT COMES FROM GOD. You cannot arbitrarily remove one aspect of salvation and leave the others.

Your argument proves too much in your case, and actually strengthens the Calvinist's point.

 

Spurgeon - and many of the great preachers in history - often spoke in broad theological terms. There is a true sense in which all humanity "left God" in Adam, and those who are saved have then "returned" to Him.

 

It's hard to believe that a brilliant man such as Spurgeon would use the word "return" instead of turn. But he was just a man I suppose.


Can you show any scripture that says God regenerates an unbeliever?

Jesus taught that if you do not believe, you are condemned. Regeneration is the giving of spiritual life by God. God does not give eternal life to unbelievers.

You must believe to receive.


And now it's time to :sleep:

 

God ONLY regenerates unbelievers. A believer doesn't need to be regenerated ... he already is. That would be a second salvation which takes us back to another thread where this was a rather hot topic. :laugh:

 

The key to Amy's question was "scripture" where it says God regenerates unbelievers. I see your point but yet to read the scripture that proves your point. Back to square one.

Darren

 

It has been pointed out numerous times but you refuse to believe Scripture. You just cannot bring yourself to believe that you did not play a significant part in your salvation. I guess it gives you a warm glow just like the Pharisee who in prayer? said words to the effect: I thank you that I!!!!!!!

 

Hello Benefactor,

There is one draw back with the set-up of these threads. There are too few posts allowed per page, and as such, some posts are missed when there are a lot of people posting to the thread. I posted something to you on page 10 regarding your comments on Ephesians 2:8. It seems you may have missed my post.

Brian

 

Have you found that scripture yet?



Here's mine.

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

Amy

Look at Ephesians 2:1-10 from the NASB

1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Verse 1 states that: you were dead in your trespasses and sins,. Now obviously that person was not saved, he was physically alive but spiritually dead. In 1 Corinthians 2:14 [NASB] we read: But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. John Gill states of this natural man: Not a babe in Christ, one that is newly born again, for though such have but little knowledge of spiritual things, yet they have a taste, and do relish and desire, and receive the sincere milk of the word, and grow thereby; but an unregenerate man.

Now look again at verses 4 and 5:
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

This passage states that while we were still [spiritually] dead in our trespasses God made us [spiritually] alive. We were spiritually dead, unable to do anything to change our relationship toward God because as 1 Corinthians 2:14 [NASB] states: But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

There is no mention of faith, there is no indication of any action on man's part. This is totally consistent with what Jesus Cjrist told Nicodemus about the new birth in John 3:3-10:

3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Notice that in verse 8 Jesus Christ tells Nicodemus that those born of the Spirit [regenerated] do not even understand how.

I want to be very clear. No one who believes in the Biblical Doctrines of Grace would argue that Faith does not have a significant place in the Salvation of man. Scripture teaches that we are justified by faith. Faith is the instrument through which we recognize and acknowledge that which God has performed in our salvation; but that faith is the gift of God as Ephesians 2:8 clearly shows. Salvation is of the LORD! You might want to read Psalms 51 where David says in verse 12: Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

 

Your kind of posts drive many away from this board.
Try showing you're a Christian, first, Arminian second, to your fellows who were also redeemed by the blood of Christ.
If you disagree with TULIP, then show why you have the correct position, instead of painting your brethren as liars, deceivers, and truth twisters.
Or do you think Christ did not die to redeem them also, but just you and your fellow non-TULIPs ?

 

I used to think that faith preceded salvation, too.
Until I took a long look at what the Bible teaches, its characters, the pictures, types and shadows of the Old Testament, and the entire New Testament.
Finally, I tried to read the Bible and understand salvation from the point of view that Christ FINISHED WHAT HE CAME TO DO, which according to Matthew 1:21 is to save His people from their sins.
If Christ finished what He came to do, that indeed entitles Him to His current rest sitting at the right hand of power, according to Hebrews.
Then why does the Bible teach that salvation comes through faith ?
The answer was simple.
This is NOT the eternal salvation that Christ finished.
When one takes into consideration the situation obtaining when the Savior stood at the mountain, prior to His ascension, one understands why He sent out His apostles with the words, "believe and are baptized shall be saved", in the correct historical and theological context of that time.

He is sending out His gospel not to save sinners for eternity a SECOND time because HE JUST DID THAT, and I challenge Benefactor to show Scriptures that Jesus Christ DID NOT DO THAT.

They just crucified Him, He just shed His blood, He just reported to His Father that none will be lost save one, that is Judas, He just resurrected, He just reorganized His scattered followers, and now, they need to go out to the world and reach as much of their brethren, His sheep, with the good news of a FINISHED AND DONE salvation, and they are to BELIEVE IN HIM and turn away from whatever religion they happen to be in at the time of their conversion.

THAT required faith, obedience, repentance.
The salvation He just obtained for His people was all of grace and mercy.
The salvation they need to work out needs faith, obedience, repentance.

If faith is a PRE-REQUISITE of ETERNAL salvation, then KNOWLEDGE OF THE NAME OF CHRIST must also be a pre-requisite, and if so, then is JOB saved and redeemed ? He did not even know God as Jehovah.

Moses and the Israelites knew the Almighty's Name is Jehovah, but did they know the Name of Christ ?

Yet Acts 4:12 states, " Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved ."

So, Benefactor, was Moses saved ? Were those in Hebrews' hall of faith saved ? None of them knew the Name of Christ. How can you place faith in something you do not know about ?

How are YOU going to use Scriptures to show that Job and Moses and David and Solomon and Rahab and the prophets are saved because they have faith yet do not know the Name of Christ ?

 

Ben, please don't shout. When you type in large letters, that is internet-ese for shouting. You can use italics or bold-face (but not too much--it's distracting) to make your point.

 

"We believe that this true faith being wrought in man by the hearing of the Word of God, and the operation of the Holy Ghost, doth regenerate and make him a new man, causing him to live a new life, and freeing him from the bondage of sin." ---Belgic Confession

 

Old Regular, you just don't quit do you? I have already showed you several times that Ephesians 1:13 shows the specific order that takes place in salvation.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

I did not write this again for you, as you have already shown you will resist the clear teaching of scripture. I wrote this so others would not fall into your error.

You have also said that it is impossible for the spiritually dead to hear and understand God's word. This is false also, and I will show you from scripture that it is not true.

When Adam and Eve were in the garden, God gave them but one rule, that they could not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and in the day that they would eat they would surely die.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And we know that Eve first and then Adam did eat of this tree. But did they physically die that very day? No. They died spiritually.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

When Adam and Eve ate this fruit they did not die physically. But the Lord said they would die "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die". God said they would die that very day. So we know that God is not speaking of physical death because they did not physically die that very day.

But they did die spiritually. Their eyes were opened. Before this time they had only known good, now they also knew evil. They knew they were naked and were ashamed. They tried to cover their sin with their own works (apron made of fig leaves). They also became fearful of God for the first time and hid themselves from his presence.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

And this is where you go wrong. Spiritual death always means separation from God. When a sinner dies he does not cease to exist, but he is forever separated from God.

But they could still hear God's voice, and they could understand God.

Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

So here was Adam and Eve, both spiritually dead, insufficiently covered in their aprons made of fig leaves, ashamed and afraid of God. But they could both quite clearly hear God's words and understand them. They were unsaved at this point.

But God made a promise to them to send a saviour who would bruise the head of the serpent who had fooled Eve and brought about their fall. And Adam and Eve both believed this promise. So again, we have the order of hearing the word of God, and then believeing.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

So here was the first promise. And faith is believeing the promises of God. And we know they believed because when Eve became pregnant with Cain she mistakingly thought the child was of God.

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Eve was mistaken here, the child was from Adam. But she believed when God gave the promise that from her seed a saviour would come. She even understood that the father of this child would be God himself.

After believeing God's word and promise Adam and Eve were saved. And then God killed an animal, shedding it's blood, a picture of Christ, and covered them.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Now they were saved, now they were born again, now their sins were forgiven and covered by the blood of Christ.

And we also see in Luke that an unsaved man can hear and understand the word of God.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Here the rich man died, was buried, and was in hell. But he was fully able to communicate with Abraham who was saved. And we see here that sin separates a man from God, there was a great gulf between the saved and lost here than cannot be crossed. But again, they could still communicate.

And notice when this rich man asked Abraham to send someone from the dead to warn his five brothers, that Abraham showed these unsaved men could hear and understand the scriptures.

Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

So we see here that Abraham said let these five unsaved brothers hear the scriptures (Moses and the prophets). The rich man objected and said no, let someone who rose from the dead go to them. This is speaking of Jesus.

But Abraham showed that if they would not listen to the scriptures, then neither would they listen to Jesus. But it is not that they cannot hear and understand the scriptures, it is because they willfully refuse to listen to them.

So, the scriptures clearly show that a spiritually dead person can hear, understand, and even respond to God's word.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

And this verse from Jesus himself absolutely shows that a spiritually dead person can hear and understand God's word. And those that do choose to hear and believe will be made alive.

No getting around John 5:25, Jesus himself said the "dead" can hear his word.

 

Benefactor

What he is doing is what Jesus spoke of in Mark

Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

You can show him a hundred scriptures that contradict his belief, he will ignore and reject them all to keep his own tradition.