1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Which comes first?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by agedman, Mar 11, 2018.

Top Posters
  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Which comes first, the recognition of the need of salvation or the recognition of the Lord?
     
    #1 agedman, Mar 11, 2018
  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,643
    Likes Received:
    1,158
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Recognition of the Lord.
    (although neither comes absolutely “first”)
     
    #2 atpollard, Mar 11, 2018
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,506
    Likes Received:
    3,568
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Recognition of the need.
     
    #3 JonC, Mar 11, 2018
  4. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Messages:
    13,796
    Likes Received:
    2,468
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Could come either way.
     
    #4 Reynolds, Mar 11, 2018
  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Perhaps two places that might give help.

    The conversion of Paul, and the conversion of the Philippian jailor are both given in some detail.

    Let me state my own thinking.

    Anyone who is truly a convert will first understand that the Lord is the Lord of salvation prior to them being converted.

    Many will claim that the Lord is Lord, yet remain outside of the faith in an unconverted state.

    Yet, none can be first saved and then the Lord becomes Lord.

    Although, there are those that, after salvation, do sense an even greater need to make the Lord actually the master of all areas of their life and living, is that not also the work of the Holy Spirit that takes place as the normal growing evidenced in all believers?
     
    #5 agedman, Mar 12, 2018
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God Himself is the One doing both to/for the sinner!
     
    #6 Yeshua1, Mar 12, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The question then would be does God allow one to be saved that does not recognize His Son as Lord?
     
    #7 agedman, Mar 12, 2018
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    To Know jesus is to have Eternal Life, as that is found in the Son!
     
    #8 Yeshua1, Mar 12, 2018
  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    On the surface this sounds good.

    However, my own sense is that I would rather my Lord know me.

    For does not the Scriptures state that He says to those, "Depart, I never knew you," and what a terrible saying that would be to any who strive of their own intellect to know, or consider that their suffering in the flesh was an identifier, yet not come to terms with the claims of the Christ as Lord in salvation?
     
    #9 agedman, Mar 12, 2018
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I think that none are ever saved who have not acknowledged Jesus is Lord....
     
    #10 Yeshua1, Mar 12, 2018
  11. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,333
    Likes Received:
    458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In my opinion God moves from unbelief unto belief.
    IMO Paul did not recognize Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of God.
    IMO Paul was blind to the truth of God. Paul, the pharisee. Would he have been in Jerusalem on the Passover Jesus died? Did it require the Spirit of Truth for his blindness to be removed?

    What did he then begin to preach?

    Did Jesus move him from unbelief unto belief or did Paul move himself, thus?
    And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
     
    #11 percho, Mar 12, 2018
  12. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    At times, I have heard some say, “make Jesus lord of your life.”

    Is that really a truthful statement of human ability?

    Is not the believer to Humble themselves and as they humble themselves the Lord find the believer useful?

    Should not the statement be, “Humble yourself before God, andin due time, He may exalt you?” (1 Peter 5)
     
    #12 agedman, Mar 13, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What does it matter and does it actually matter?
     
    #13 HankD, Mar 13, 2018
  14. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There are those that would hold to either one must acknowledge at salvation the Lordship, or the othe side that one may after conversion become aware of the need to “make Him” Lord.

    Would you consider that some stumble along in ignorance in which Paul redirected their thinking, but in our modern age, some others would seem to refuse the Lord on terms of having a life committed to Him in favor of some “He’s there whenever I desire,” thinking?
     
    #14 agedman, Mar 13, 2018
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    He is there 24/7 every moment.
     
    #15 HankD, Mar 13, 2018
  16. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I saw your post title and came by to tell you it was the chicken and not the egg.:)

    But then I saw you are talking about something else!
    Would you clarify what you mean by "the recognition of the Lord"? Do you mean recognizing that Jesus is the Lord? Thanks.
     
    #16 rlvaughn, Mar 13, 2018
  17. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I didn’t want to be that specific so that folks could address either the growth to recognition or the recognition as inseparable from conversion.

    In my own thinking, the true conversion is inseparable from the recognition of the Lord.

    But, I am desirous to know others point of view.
     
    #17 agedman, Mar 13, 2018
  18. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,686
    Likes Received:
    389
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Calvin's Institutes, first chapter, touches on our knowledge of self and out knowledge of God. That's a different subject, but it is helpful in answering the OP.

    1. OUR wisdom, in so far as it ought to be deemed true and solid Wisdom, consists almost entirely of two parts: the knowledge of God and of ourselves. But as these are connected together by many ties, it is not easy to determine which of the two precedes and gives birth to the other. . .

    2. On the other hand, it is evident that man never attains to a true self-knowledge until he have previously contemplated the face of God, and come down after such contemplation to look into himself. For (such is our innate pride) we always seem to ourselves just, and upright, and wise, and holy, until we are convinced, by clear evidence, of our injustice, vileness, folly, and impurity. Convinced, however, we are not, if we look to ourselves only, and not to the Lord also--He being the only standard by the application of which this conviction can be produced. . .​
     
    #18 thatbrian, Mar 13, 2018
  19. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,960
    Likes Received:
    1,694
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Scripture teaches just that.

    Jeremiah 1:5
    Psalm 139:16
    Ephesians 1:4
     
    #19 Reformed, Mar 13, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Loading...