Which Coming?

[Daniel David]

Yes, yes, yes, more backslapping. You know, it is so obvious that the church would go through THE tribulation (not just tribulation), that Paul and Peter and John and Luke and James and Matthew and Mark spend all that time on what we are supposed to do during the tribulation.

Actually, now that I think about it, THEY NEVER TELL US WHAT TO DO IN PREPARATION OR DURING IT.

Just a quick story, I live in Orlando, where Rosenthal is. I was at Zion's Hope before it became the Holy Land experience. I was there with my fiance and noticed a painting of the four horsemen of the apocalypse. I was pointing out what each one was when Rosenthal walked up from behind me. He asked if I was a Bible student. I said I was finishing my undergrad work. He asked which school I attended. I asked him if he had ever heard of Luther Rice Seminary (a pretrib Southern Baptist school with an extension in Orlando). He grumbled that he was verrry familiar with them.

It was funny.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
We are appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess. 3:3-4, because Christ suffered on the cross, so, therefore, we ought follow Christ's example - Luke 9:23 and 1 Peter 2:21.

While we are appointed for tribulation, we are not appointed from THE tribulation. In fact, Paul says that in 1 Thess 5:9.

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
While we are appointed for tribulation, we are not appointed from THE tribulation. In fact, Paul says that in 1 Thess 5:9.

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." --1 Thess 5:9

1 Thess 5:9 doesn't say "tribulation", it says "wrath", hence the name pre-wrath.

Legs to Stand On
By Rev. Charles Cooper

The Church of Jesus Christ is exempted from the eschatological wrath of God. On this point, posttribbers, midtribbers, and pretribbers are in perfect accord. The message of 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 5:9 is unmistakable in asserting that believers are promised to be delivered from the eschatological wrath of God. The problems begin in light of this fact. Precisely, what is the wrath of God and when does it occur? What method will God use to deliver His people? Will He remove them out of the world or merely protect them while in the world?

SOURCE

 

[Daniel David]

1 Thess 4:13-18 explains what happens to believers prior to 1 Thess 5:9. Think context here.

Btw, all of the tribulation is the wrath of God, not merely the last few weeks.

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Btw, all of the tribulation is the wrath of God, not merely the last few weeks.

That is a matter of interpretation.

I agree with the midtrib, posttrib and pre-wrath interpretation that recognize the involvement of both the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan during Daniel's Seventieth Week.

 

[Daniel David]

Are not the 4 horsement judgment upon the world?

Doesn't the Scripture ask rhetorically that if calamity is in a city, isn't it God who was behind it?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
While we are appointed for tribulation, we are not appointed from THE tribulation. In fact, Paul says that in 1 Thess 5:9.

Sigh!

-------------------------------------

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
1 Thess 4:13-18 explains what happens to believers prior to 1 Thess 5:9. Think context here.

Btw, all of the tribulation is the wrath of God, not merely the last few weeks.

AMen, Brother Daniel David -- Preach it!

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
While we are appointed for tribulation, we are not appointed from THE tribulation. In fact, Paul says that in 1 Thess 5:9.

I meant to say that we are not appointed FOR the Daniel's 70th week.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by NetPublicist:
I agree with the midtrib, posttrib and pre-wrath interpretation that recognize the involvement of both the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan during Daniel's Seventieth Week.

Sounds something like what
John Darby started

Anyway, yes, i believe that.
I've been pretrib for 52 years now.
Recon if i'll yo-yo somewhere else soon

 

[JGrubbs]

I would rather be preparing for Tribulation and get surprised by Rapture than be found preparing for Rapture and get surprised by Tribulation.

I believe the timing of the rapture is a non-dogmatic doctrine, so this will be one of the "matters of interpretation" that we will have to agree to disagree about.

 

[Daniel David]

I would rather agree with Paul and be pretrib. But, as you said, we can disagree about agreeing with Paul.

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
I would rather agree with Paul and be pretrib. But, as you said, we can disagree about agreeing with Paul.

You mean your interpretation of Paul.

There is no known writing existing, or referred to by other writers, of the pre-trib rapture teaching prior to 1830. None of the early Church fathers or anyone else throughout Church history wrote about the saints being raptured before the end-time Great Tribulation. This does not conclusively mean that the theory is false, only that it is a historical fact that this teaching did not exist among the early Christians or the Church fathers or any Christians throughout history until 1830.

Reportedly the origin of the pre-trib rapture teaching was with a fifteen-year-old girl named Margaret MacDonald in the town of Port Glasgow, Scotland. Supposedly in 1830 she had a dream or vision that Christians were raptured just prior to the Great Tribulation. In 1831 or 1832 a Presbyterian pastor in London, England named Edward Irving heard about this dream or vision that Miss MacDonald had and started teaching it to his congregation. These are well-known reports among scholars of eschatology.

These reports concerning the origin of the pre-trib rapture theory may or may not be true. What is well-documented is the fact that John Nelson Darby, the founder of a group known as the Plymouth Brethren, after visiting Miss MacDonald began teaching this new theory.

Later, by 1917, C. I. Scofield had published his improved edition of the Scofield Reference Bible which contained the dispensational pre-tribulation teachings of Darby and others. Soon many Bible Colleges such as Moody Bible Institute and seminaries such as Dallas Theological Seminary became staunch promoters of dispensational theology that included the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by NetPublicist:
I would rather be preparing for Tribulation and get surprised by Rapture than be found preparing for Rapture and get surprised by Tribulation.

I'd rather know
the truth as taught in the Holy Bible.

BTW, when you start talking about what
you would really must do to keep
your wife and children (and other wards
which the Lord might have given you)
from suffering in the TRIBULATION PERIOD
JUDGEMENT -- then the posties will not
talk to you and you will be banned
(nobody wants to talk murder/suicide
even if A/C inspired).

 

[Daniel David]

What, you mean like them believing in an imminent return? Kind of hard to be imminent if you can count down the days.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by NetPublicist:
There is no known writing existing, or referred to by other writers, of the pre-trib rapture teaching prior to 1830. None of the early Church fathers or anyone else throughout Church history wrote about the saints being raptured before the end-time Great Tribulation.

The term "pre-tribulation rapture" was
not used prior to 1830.

In fact, there was hardly any true Christian
up to about 1750 who believed there would
be a Millinnial Kingdomless 1830.

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
What, you mean like them believing in an imminent return? Kind of hard to be imminent if you can count down the days.

The Apostle Peter did not believe that Jesus would return at any moment after He ascended into heaven. Jesus, before His ascension, told Peter that he would live to be an old man, which would be many years later, and how he would die to glorify God (Jn. 21:18-19).

Paul knew that he was a chosen vessel unto the Lord to bear His name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel (Acts 9:15). The apostle knew that the rapture would not take place before this ministry was accomplished.

Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit of Christ, wrote concerning the rapture, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by [concerning] the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by [concerning] our gathering together unto him....Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thess. 2:1-3).

 

[Ed Edwards]

NetPublicist: "What is well-documented
is the fact that John Nelson Darby, the founder
of a group known as the Plymouth Brethren,
after visiting Miss MacDonald began teaching
this new theory."

These lies may be "well-documented" but they are still lies.

John Nelson Darby did NOT found the Plymouth Brethren.
In fact, in the 1830s the Plymouth Brethren was about as
much like herding cats as the IFB is today

John Nelson Darby never met with Miss MacDonald.

Miss MacDonald had no pre-trib extra-bibilical revelation.

Miss MacDonald had her visions in 1830 or 1831.
John Nelson Darby's pretribulation writings were first
written in 1828.

To thier collective shame, ignornat posties know more about
Miss MacDonald than educated premies

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Miss MacDonald had her visions in 1830 or 1831. John Nelson Darby's pretribulation writings were first written in 1828.

William Kelly, Brethren member and Darby disciple destined to become the editor of Darby's many writings. Kelly's revisionism included words subtly added, subtracted, and changed in old documents. This long covered-up dishonesty, engineered mostly during the latter half of the 1800's, resulted in Kelly being able to claim that the Irvingites never taught pretrib so that he could falsely — and brazenly - credit Darby with it!

But the most insidious aspect of Kelly's handling of Darby material is the way he inserted "mature" footnotes in Darby's earliest works, that is, taking statements written by Darby many years later, when Darby was prophetically much more developed, and inserting them as "explanatory" footnotes in his earliest writings and giving the false impression that Darby had believed certain things years before he actually believed them!

SOURCE

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by NetPublicist:

SOURCE

I pray daily for Brother Tim, but i
consider his Last Trumpet
an unfactual source of information. I'll not be
changing my statement. In fact, i find the
posties insistance on the recentness of
the Pretribulation Rapture Theory to be
projection. "Projection" is the psychological
phenomonena where one accuses another of
one's own flaws, shortcomings, etc.
It is the Post-tribulation Only Rapture
Theory that is new (probably developed wholy
within the recent 20th Century (1901-2000).