Which Coming?

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: "No one saying our gathering together separate from Lord's coming in the past centuries."

No one is saying it here either except
anti-rapture folk.
You do not understand "separate".

You get your "day" (like in Day of the Lord)
from your dictionary.
Pretribulationists get their "day"
from Daniel 9:27.
No wonder we sound discordant, we are both
singing from a different page. Oops,
talker metaphors. Here is better, non-talker
metaphor: No wonder we look silly,
we are both signing from a different page.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

You do not understand "separate"

Most pretribbers saying rapture is not at the second coming.

In the past centuries, all Christians believed caught up/gathering together shall be at Christ's coming. In their time, they unheard of the doctrine on the two stages of the second advent. Because it was not exist in their time.

Daniel 9:27 say nothing about 7 year of 'tribulation period', neither it saying about caught up and the gathering together either. The context of Daniel 9:24-27 focus about Christ and the Calvary already fulfilled 2,000 years ago.

Also, you mentioned about 'day of the Lord'.

I would like to add few more unto the list on 'Which Coming'?

31) Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the Day of redemption."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? Hs 2nd or 3rd?

***********************************************

32) Philippians 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the Day of Jesus Christ."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

************************************************

33) Philippians 1:10 "That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offense till the Day of Christ;"

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

************************************************

34) "Hold forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the Day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

************************************************

35) 1 Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so Cometh as a thief in the night."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

************************************************

36) 2 Timothy 1:12 "For the which cause I also suffer these things: neverthless I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that Day."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

************************************************

37) 2 Timothy 1:18 "The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that Day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

************************************************

38) 2 Timothy 4:8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that Day and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his Appearing."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

************************************************

39) Hebrews 10:25 "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

************************************************

40) 2 Peter 3:10,12 "But the Day of the Lord will Come as a thief in the night: in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall metl with fervent heat, the earth also and the the works that are therein shall be burned up. Looking for and hasting unto the Coming of the Day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

************************************************

41) 1 John 4:17 "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the Day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

************************************************

42) Jude 6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkeness unto the judgment of the great Day

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

43)Jude 14-15 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesised of these, saying, Behold, the Lord Cometh with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly commited, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

************************************************

44) Acts 2:19-20 "And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: The sun shall be turned unto darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable Day of the Lord Come

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

************************************************

45) Joel 2:31 "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible Day of the Lord Come."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

************************************************

46) Joel 3:11-15 "Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. Put ye in the sickle, for the HARVEST is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the vats overflow; for thier wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the Day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

Later, I will add more to the list on 'Which Coming'?

Please answer all of 46 questions, tell me of these questions, which one is 2nd or 3rd?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

45) Joel 2:31 "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible Day of the Lord Come."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

First. This is IAW Acts 2:19-20.
This is when the "last days" began.
Those last days have been going on
for 2,159,664 each 8-hour-work-shift days.
Will the LAST DAY only be
3 each 8-hour-work-shift days long?

44) Acts 2:19-20 "And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: The sun shall be turned unto darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable Day of the Lord Come

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

First. This was prophecisied in Joel 2:31



46) Joel 3:11-15 "Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. Put ye in the sickle, for the HARVEST is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the vats overflow; for thier wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the Day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

This is right before the 24-hour DAY OF THE LORD
when Jesus comes to destroy the Antichrist and his armies.
This would be right beore Coming #3.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

I will reply back to you later or tomorrow night about 'last days' & 'last day' also Joel 2:31 too.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

31) Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,
whereby ye are sealed unto the Day of redemption."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? Hs 2nd or 3rd?

SECOND COMING.
You live in the Church Age (age during which one can become
a member of the eternal church), you will be
redemed at comming #2. BTW, this is a solid OSAS verse:
you become sealed for redemption at the place you
first call Jesus "Lord" while believing that God raised
Jesus from the dead. (romans 10:9). HOw do you become
unsealed? Even grieving the Holy Spirit of God doesn't
get you un-"sealed for redemption".

Comming #2 - start of the 7-year Day of the Lord
Comming #3 - end of the 7-year Day of the Lord.
Note that both together are called in the Bible "the second coming".
Note that comming #3 is called in the Bible "the second coming".

Here is a writing of mine about the two events
------------------------------

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,

Two events mentioned here:
1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2) our gathering together unto him

Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Two events mentioned here:
1) blessed hope
2) the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

These two events are mentioned seperately
throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
was a mystery in the O.T. is now mentioned
in the N.T.

Rapture Passages (the gathering):

Matthew 24:31-44
Mark 13
Luke 21
John 14:1-3
Romans 8:19
1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
1 Timothy 6:14
2 Timothy 4:1,8
Hebrews 9:28
1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
1 John 2:28-3:2
Jude 1:21
Revelation 2:25

Second Advent Passages
(Jesus comes again in power and glory):

Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
Matthew 13:41
Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
Mark 13
Luke 21
Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
1 Thessalonians 3:13
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
1 Peter 4:12-131
2 Peter 3:1-14
Jude 1:14-15
Revelation 4-19

 

[Ed Edwards]

It is interesting to have all the citations of early
Cristians: how they felt, what they believed. Strange
that this is always in support of the ideas
of the person posting?

Strangely, I've actually read some of the writings.
Having done so, it looks like that most others have NOT
read the writings of the Early Church Fathers.
(There are exceptions among posties, but you can count
those exceptions on one hand of a Disney character.)

You see, each generation of Christians, each group of
Christians has a different outlook, depending upon
thier circumstance. The main topic of discussion
among Early Christian 301-313AD
in what is now Turkey:
How glorious a martyrdom shall I receive?

You see, they felt because of what Messiah Yeshua
had done for them in the Resurrection, what ever
they sufferend (including death) would be rewarded.
The ethernal reward would be much greater than
the suffering.

In the Late 20th century (1991-2000), the main
discussion of Some Baptists groups was eheterh the
New International Version (NIV) was of God or
of Satan.

If a persons doesn't know about the politics of
301-313BC in the Roman Empire, one has little
authority to say what the early Christians were
thinking, believing, or were feeling.
(One can of course speculate, but it is speculation
not fact).

So, I ask this, Who will have the more glorious martyrdom:
the people who die in the Tribulation Period Judgement
that are in Christ OR the one who get raptured before
the Tribulation Period Judgement starts?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
In the Late 20th century (1991-2000), the main
discussion of Some Baptists groups was eheterh the
New International Version (NIV) was of God or
of Satan.

Bad spelling corrected:

In the Late 20th century (1991-2000), the main
discussion of Some Baptists groups was whether the
New International Version (NIV) was of God or
of Satan.

 

[brumleyj]

there are about 300 verse are speaking of future coming of Christ in both old and new testament. i could put a list but is too long to put a list of all 300 verse.

early chruch to before 1830's holding teach one future coming of Chirst for 1,800 thousand year until john darby developed new doctrine called pretribualtion. only 170 year old it still new doctrine. posttrib is very very old and never change it always remian same which Christ is speaking.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

brumleyj,

AMEN! Preach it!!!

Later, I will reply back to you - Ed later tonight.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[HisMercy]

Didn't the Lord come a 2nd time in the form of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by HisMercy:
Didn't the Lord come a 2nd time in the form of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost?

Well, He did.
But by my count it is the 4th coming:

The comings of Jesus to Earth:

1. pre-carnate (as to the 3 Hebrew children)
2. babe in Bethelhim
3. return from Hell (after
crucifixion for resurrection
4. the Spirit at Pentacost
5. pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
6. post-tiibulation rapture/resurrection

 

[Ed Edwards]

6) 2 Thess 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? HIs 2nd or 3rd?

This is the key pretribulation rapture verse.
It shows both Comings of the Lord in one verse.
"our gathering together unto him" is what DPT calls
"the second coming". "The Coming of our Lord
Jesus Christ" is what DPT calls "the third coming".

7) James 5:7-8 "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the Coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the Coming of the Lord draweth nigh."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

This describes the second coming when Jesus comes to get His own
and take them to heaven for the Judgement Seat of Christ and for
the Wedding Supper of the Lamb.

The most wonderful thing is going to happen when Jesus comes to
get His own. He will resurrect the Dead in Christ; He will rapture
(change in a moment) the living in Christ. Jesus is coming to get
us some day. Will you be ready to receive Him?

8) 2 Peter 3:4, 10-12 "And saying, Where is the promise of His Coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. ... But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the Coming of the day of God."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

This is a summary of both comings and other events in the
history future both to Peter and to us in 2004. This shows the purpose
of eschatological doctrine is to ehort one another to "holy conversation
and godlilness". The "Day of the Lord" here is when Lord Jesus
interfeeres in the affairs of men again. It starts with the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection, continues through seven years of the
Tribulation Period Judgement, continues through 1,000 physical years
of Jesus ruling on a physical throne of David in a physical Jerusalem
and on a physical earth populated with physical people.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

I will reply back to you about Joel 2:28-31; 3:15 & Acts 2:17-21, also many things what you saying. I will reply back to you on Sunday night.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I am not yet reply on these. I will reply back on them tomorrow morning, I promise.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

9) 1 John 2:28-3:2 "And now, little children, abide in him; that when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at His Coming. If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, When He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

This is the rapture/resurrection comming which Brother DPT
has called "comming #2", when Jesus comes
to get His own at the beginning of the Tribulation Period Judgement
on earth and the Judgement Seat of Christ Judgement Seat (bema)
of Christ in heaven.


10) Revelation 1:7 "Behold, He Cometh with clouds: and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?


The kingdoms and persons of earth shall wail when the
Lord comes in power and glory -- for they know they are
doomed. This is what DPT calls the 3rd comming,
the one after the Tribulation Period on earth
and the Wedding Supper of the Lamb in Heaven.
When Jesus comes to get me and the rest of the saints
before the Tribulation Period, we are all going to be
shoughting praises to God and NOT wailing sadly.


11) Revelation 16:14b-17 "to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I Come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel oured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."

Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

neither is described here.
Verse 15 seems to be an interjection of signifiance
to John (living in the first century) not to the
flow of the remarks in verses 14b and 16.
Verses 14b and 16 are where John sees the armies
of the Antichrist and allied armies gather at Har Magedo
(that is the Mountain of Maggedo, which is interesting
being that Maggedo is a valley. but we shorten it in English
to Armagedon). This gathering for Armagedon is in
perperation for what DPT has called "the 3rd coming".
Verse 15 is for the people of the gentile age RIGHT NOW.
When Jesus comes as a theif at an unknown time suggests
what DPT called "the 2ed coming". What DPT calles the
3ed coming comes at a fixed time exactly 1260 times 2
equals 2520 days after
the revelation of the antichrist and exatcly 1260 days
after the antichrist commits the abomination of of
desolation.

I like to compare what the Bible calls the second coming
of Jesus to a tribulation period knife.
The knife cuts the age of the gentiles from the
Millinnial Kingdom of Jeus age. The knife is 7-years
(2520 days, 84 months, two 3½-years) wide.

<--- ed leaping in the air,
doing his pretribulation rapture exercise

 

[Ed Edwards]

I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the "prince that shall come".
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Good news!!! Ed, tonight is my off from 3rd shift job. I will reply back to you on this.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

I am back. You giving me lot of work to type this post longer, because I am much behind to reply back to you about your replies of post. I haven't reply back to you for least a week. I read your replies, you intepreting verses by use your own logicals too much. Nothing wrong to use logical while intepreting the scriptures. My personal, I am not rather to intepreting scriptures into my own logical. Being to use logical could be dangerous, because logical seems close as opinion. I do not want to use logical or opinion what the scriptures saying. Accept what these saying, believe them.

Two things, that I do not agree with the hermenutic rules, as what men's making the rule. Two of the hermeneutic rules that I disagree with" 'Interpreting with Logically', and Interpreting with Literally'. I do not agree with them. Both are not safer to do while read and study the Bible.

But, most of the hermenutic rules, I agree: Intepreting Christology, Intepreting Progressive Revelation, Intepreting Scripture to Scripture, Intepreting in Contextually. I can't remember the excatly 9 lists of the hermenutic rules.

Tonight is my off from work. I have enough time to reply back to you. This might be a long post, because I am behind for to reply back to you.

Now, let's discuss on Joel 2:28-31; Joel 3:11-15; and Acts 2:18-21.

First, I like to discuss on Joel 2:28-29. It speaks about the prophecy of the Holy Spirit shall pour upon God's people. It was prophicied about 400 to 500 years before Pentacost Day.

When Apostle Peter preached to people of Israel during Pentacost day, he quote it from Joel 2:28-29 in Acts 2:16-18 he said, "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 'And it shall come to pass in the last dayS, saith God, I will pour of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy':"

Acts 2:16-18 already fulfilled Joel 2:28-29 speaks of the coming Holy Spirit pour upon God's people for to preach the gospel of the kingdom to the world. Right now, we are in the last days since Pentacost, the last days shall be finish when the sun, moon, and the stars shall be darkened, to announcment of Christ's coming at the end of the world.

Then, Joel 2:30-31 tells us, at the end of the last days, God shall show the signs of the comsmic disturbance to announcment of Christ's coming, it shall be fulfilled at the end of the world - Matt. 24:29; Rev. 6:12-13. Right now, the sun, moon, and the stars are not yet darkned.

Peter quoted Joel 2:30-31 in Acts 2:19-20, that he told them, God shall show the signs of the comsic disturbance to announcment of Christ's coming - Matt 24:29; and Rev. 6:12-13. Right now, we are in the last days, I strongly believe sun, moon, and the stars all will be darkened at the SAME TIME. In the past, we do see the esclipse of sun, moon serveral times. Myself saw esclipse of sun, and moon too. I saw the moon became red during night while it was eclipse. It was temporary time. Either sun or moon were eclipsed, but both are not occur same time, for example, half way over the world, people in Chian did not see the esclipe, while we are in America, see the eclipse in the same time. I strongly believe everything in the space - sun, moon, and stars all will be darkened at the SAME TIME. Once everything up in the space is darkened, WHOLE planet earth shall be in darkened completely same time. Either sun or moon will NOT be eclipse, both shall be darkened same time. Even stars too. How shall it cause space to become darkened same time? God will cause them into darkened in his power.

Notice. Joel 2:32 tells us, when it shall come to pass, whosoever (anyone) shall call on the name of the LORD shall be DELIVERED. I understand what Joel 2:32 talk about, it tells us, before the cosmic disturbance occurs, anyone either Jew or Gentile who already called upon the Lord by believed and repented of sins, SHALL BE DELIVERED right after the cosmic disturbance is the pictute of gathering together - rapture.

Same as what Peter said of Acts 2:20-21. Notice 'SHALL BE saved', that is future sense. Right now, we are not offically saved while in our life, Matt 10:22; Matt 24:13 tell us, we must be endure all the way in our life till death or Christ comes, then we shall be saved.

Luke 21:28 tells us, when we see the signs begin to come and pass, THEN look up for the redemption draw near. Redemption same as saved. Also, redemption is same as delivered. It shows us, when after we see the cosmic disturbance occured, THEN, we shall look up for our body to be redemption, means our body all shall be changed into immortality - Romans 8:19-23; and 1 Cor. 15:51-54, shall be at Lord's coming for to gathering us together to meet Him. Cosmic disturbance cannot be occured yet TILL after tribulation - Matt 24:29; Mark 13:24-25.

So, I asking you, which one of His coming is 2nd or 3rd - Joel 2:30-31 & Acts 2:19-20??

Joel 3:11-15 speak of very clear about the second coming.

Notice Joel 3:11 speaks of the gatherng together is very clear speak of rapture. Notice Joel 2:15-16 speak of blowing the trumpet call for our gathering together same with Matt 24:31; 1 Thess. 4:16-17; and 1 Cor. 15:52.

Joel 3:12-13 show the clear picture of the harvest of the world refer to Matthew 13:30, 39-41; 49-50; Matt. 25:31-46; and Rev. 14:14-20.

Joel 3:14 speaks of the judgement day to all nations. Joel 3:14 is same as Matt. 25:31-46; Rev. 20:11-15. Joel 3:14 speaks of judgment seat of Christ/great white throne judgement at Lord's coming right after the cosmic disturbance occred - Joel 2:30-31; and 3:15.

So, I asking you, Joel 3:11-15 speak of which ONE of His Coming is His 2nd or 3rd??

You saying of Eph. 4:30 show very strong speak of security salvation about 'sealed' by the Holy Spirit, prove that the Holy Spirit already sealed in us at salvation, Holy Spirit will never leave us, He always remain in us all the time till rapture comes.

Notice verse 30 warns us, it says, "And grieve NOT the holy Spirit of God" It tells us, we do NOT sinning against the Holy Spirit, because H.S. dwells in our body - 1 Cor. 3:16-17 tells us, that we are the templ of God, as Christ dwells in us, but it warns us, IF we defile against the Holy Spirit, God shall DESTROY us!!! Obivously, 1 Cor. 3:17 speaks of conditional salvation with warning. John 10:27-29 promises us, Christ always hold us like as 'sealed' inn us, IF we follow Him. OR...... if we do NOT follow Christ, He might loose us out of his hand!

Our salvation is not yet offically while we are living till our death or Christ comes. We are now 'engaged' with the Holy Spirit after we called upon the Lord with repentence of sins. Holy Spirit comes in our body and sealed in us. Being sealed in us, does not mean that we are offically saved at once after our salvation. God have power to loose us out of his hand, IF we stopped follow Christ - John 10:27-29. Right now, we are still engaged with the Holy Spirit, means we are engaged with Jesus Christ. We are NOT yet marry Christ. We shall be marry with Christ WHEN Christ comes to gathering us - Revelation chapter 19, then our salvation will be offically and our redemption of our body will be occur at Lord's coming - Luke 21:28; Romans 8:19-23; Eph. 4:30; Titus 1:2; 2:13; and 3:7.

Eph. 4:30 tells us, we are sealed TILLLLLL the day of redemption, OR in other word, IF we grieve the Holy Spirit, He might loosed us out of his hand while we are living. That why, Matt 10:22; 24:13 command us, we ought to be endure all the way till the end, THEN shall be saved!

So, I asking you, 'day of redemption' of Eph. 4:30 - which one of His Coming is His 2nd or 3rd??

Comming(in your humor, trying to shout in your voice as bold sauing "coMMing" for coming) #2 - start of the 7-year Day of the Lord.. Comming #3 - end of the 7-year Day of the Lord. Note that both together are called in the Bible "the second coming". Note that comming #3 is called in the Bible "the second coming"

The Bible does not teaching us there are two phases of the second advent. There is no hint find anywhere in the Bible telling us, there are two phases of future coming. It teaches us, there is the only one future coming of Christ at the end of the world.

Also, dispensationalists and pretribbers stretch 'day of the Lord' into 1007 years. The Bible does not actual teaching on that. It tells us, the day of the Lord shall NOT be occur yet TILL AFTER the cosmic disturbance occured - Joel 2:31; Matt 24:29. Day of the Lord does not stretch into 1007 years. It teaches us, day of the Lord means, in that day, the Lord shall judge the world. Zephaniah 1:14-16 say, "The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. THAT DAY is A DAY of wrath, A DAY of trouble and distress, A DAY of wasteness and desolation, A DAY of darkness and gloominess, A DAY of clouds and thich darkness, A DAY of the TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers." Obivously, it does not telling us, the day of the Lord is stretch into 1007 years, it tells us, day of the Lord is THE DAY when Christ shall come to earth for to judge the world at His coming.

You mentioned on 2 Thess. 2:1:

Two events mentioned here:
1)the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2)our gathering together unto Him

Apostle Paul does not saying there is a gap time between "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" & "our gathering together unto him" into 7 years. Paul is right, he tells us, our gathering together CANNOT be occur yet till Christ comes first accord to 1 Thess 4:15.

You mentioned on Titus 2:13:

Two events mentioned here:
1)blessed hope
2)the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Again, Apostle Paul does not saying there is a gap time between "blessed hope" & "the glorious appearing" into 7 years. Paul teaches us very clear, that our hope of eternal life shall be at Christ's glorious appearing is the second coming. The purpose is, our body all shall be changed into immortality - Luke 21:28; Romans 8:19-23; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; and 1 Thess. 4:15-17.

You given the lists of verse on Rapture Passages, that I am 100% agree with all verses speak of the second coming. I want to ask you on Hebrews 9:28.

It says, "and unto them that look for him shall he appear the SECOND TIME without sin unto salvation."

Does, it telling, Christ shall appear - THIRD TIME???

Often, pretrib saying Rapture is NOT second coming. Also, of course, Ed, and Pastor Larry and others saying to me, there is no 3rd coming in the Bible. I agree with them, yet, they saying rapture is NOT the second coming. Then, therefore pretrib teaching 3rd coming which is against Heb. 9:28, HUH?????

I will continue to discuss more on this in the next post - part two to reply all of them back to you. I will discuss on Second Advent Passages as you given the verses list in the next post.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

To be continue....

This is my 700th posts!!!

You given the verses lists of Second Advent Passages (Jesus comes again in power and glory)

Dan. 2:44-45 tells us, human governments of the world shall be overthrown by Christ, and He shall set His kingdom upon the earth AT his coming. Obivously, Dan. 2:44 tells us, God's kingdom shall be remain forever and ever, it is eternality kingdom NOT a temporary kingdom like as 'a thousand years' according to premill doctrine.

Dan. 7:9-14 speaks of the clearly ONE judgement day at Christ's coming, It does not saying there are two or three different judgment days in the context of Dan. 7:9-14 according to dispensationalism doctrine.

Notice, Dan. 7:13 says, "Son of man CAME with the the clouds of heaven" it refers to Matt 24:30; 1 Thess 4:15-17; and Rev. 1:7. Dan. 7:13 speaks of the ONLY ONE future coming of Christ.

Daniel 12:1-3 speak of the only ONE resurrection day for both believers and unbelievers on the last day according to John 5:27-29; 6:39,40,44, & 54. Dan. 12:1-3 does not saying, 'a thousand years' nothing. It speaks of the only ONE resurrection day for both believers and unbelievers at the last day.

Matthew 13:41 speaks of the only ONE HARVEST of the world at His coming with his angels same with Matt 25:31-46; and 2 Thess. 1:7-10. Rapture always invlove with the harvest same time. Harvest is same definition as gathering together.

Again, you keep on separate Matt 24:30 from Matt 24:31, that is against the hermenutic rule - intepreting in CONTEXTUALLY. How can you be sure that you prove Matt 24:31 speak of our gathering together shall be occur BEFORE tribulation period????

Mark 13 same as Matt 24:29-31 speak of the only ONE future coming of Christ.

Luke 21 is same as Matthew 24, and Mark 13. Luke 21:28 tells us, when after ALL these things come to pass THEN, we shall look up for our redemption of our body draw near, clear, it tells us, we must see the signs come to pass first(include cosmic disturbance) THEN, we shall look up for our redemption draw near. Luke 21:28 cannot be speak of pretrib, it clearly speak of posttrib coming.

Do you see 'yo-yo's' in Acts 1:9-11? The two angels appeared in the midst of the disciples, told them, they saw Christ lifted up into the clouds, SO, in the same way, we shall see Him come down in the same away is the second coming. Acts 1:9-11 speaks of the only ONE future coming.

I have no problem with 1 Thess. 3:13, Paul tells us, we must be blameless for stand before God AT His coming with his saints and angels too. Rightnow, thousands or millions of saints are already in the ehaven with Lord, they have been died throughout centuries. When Christ shall come, He shall bring with them from the heaven WITH him - 1 Thess 4:14 and Jude 14 too. 1 Thess. 3:13 speaks of the only ONE future coming.

I have no problem with 2 Thess 1:6-10. The context of 2 Thess 1:4-7 tell us, we shall suffer with tribulations and persecutions, we shall not be rest from them TILL Christ shall come with his angels - 2 Thess 1:7-10. 2 Thess 1:7-10 is very, very clear speak of posttrib coming - the only ONE future coming.

I have NO problem with 1 Peter 4:12-13 it tells us, we shall suffer with trials, persecutions, tribulations(1 Peter 4:16). We should be blamless and be ready AT Lord's revealed with his glory, it speaks of the only ONE future coming.

1 Peter 1:7 tells us, our works shall be test at the judgement seat of Christ AT the appearing of Jesus Christ speak of the only ONE coming.

1 Peter 1:13 tells us, we must be standfast and hold the doctrines, and fight like as soldier of Christ, to be faithful TILL AT the REVELATION of Jesus Christ. It speaks of the only ONE coming.

I have NO PROBLEM with 2 Peter 3:1-14 Notice verse 4 says, "And saying, 'Where is THE promise of HIS COMING?' ..." They were discuss about Christ's coming, they were not discuss about two comings either 'pretrib' & 'posttrib'. Because both were not yet exist in the Church history in the first of 18 Centuries since Pentacost Day. The two phases of the second coming was not teaching anywhere in the churches throughout 18 Centuries, they never hear it before, it was not yet exist in their time. Obivouly, during Early Church, people were talking about Lord's coming, they were discuss about the only ONE future coming of Christ. 2 Peter 3:10-13 clear telling us, old heavens and old earth shall be BURNED away AT His coming is obivouly speak of the second coming, and the only ONE coming!

Jude 14 -15 tell us, Enoch prophecied Christ shall come with his saints. My question is, how did the translators received the book of Enoch comes from? Why the book of Enoch was not canonized into the Bible with 66 books? Enoch prophecied of Christ's coming with his angels that was about over 2,000 years BEFORE Christ. Two phases of the second advent was NOT in Enoch's mind. Because the teaching of two phases of the second coming was not teaching TILL 19th Century. Obivously, Jude 14-15 speak of the only ONE coming. Also, I have no problem with it. Thousands or millions of saints are already in the heaven with the Lord throughout many centuries to now. When Christ shall come, He shall bring with them also - 1 Thess 4:14.

Pretrib saying there is no word, 'church' appear anywhere in Revelation 4-19, because church raptured at Rev. 4:1. My question is, show me where verse in between of Revelation 4 to 19 saying 'Church' is up IN THE HEAVEN? Pretrib saying church is seen in Revelation 19, as the marriage of the lamb. I agree with them, yet the word, "church" is not appear in Revelation 19. But, that does not mean church being excluded from Revelation 19. Also, pretrib saying, church is seen in Revelation chapter 20, that the Church shall reign with Christ. I agree with them. Yet, the word, "church" is not appear anywhere in chapter 20. But, it does not mean that Church is excluded from chapter 20. Pretrib saying, church is seen in Revelation chapter 21, Church is the New Jerusalem. I agree with them. Yet, word, "church" is not appear anywherein Revelation chapter 21, it does not mean, church is excluded from chapter 21.

Pretrib's argument of absence 'church' of Revelation 4 to 19 is very weak.


You mentioned about Spirit coming at Pentacost Day:

the comings of Jesus to Earth:
1. pre-carnate(as to the 3 Hebrew children)
2. babe in Bethelhem
3. return from hell(after crucifixion for resurrection
4. the Spirit at Pentacost
5. pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
6. post-tribulation rapture/resurrection

I want to tell you about Christ. During Old Testament period, Christ does not have his own flesh(body), He was pre-carnate, means He is Spirit. Often, during Old Testament period, Christ did visited earth in Spiit, he did talked with Adam, Moses, Abraham, and three Hebrew males in the furance. Not only Christ, also, several angels did appeared to them during Old Testament period, angels could become into form of man to commuciate with prophets during Old Testament period, but they do not have own flesh. EVEN, Satan and fallen angels could have become man, if wants to. I am sure, that several fallen angels did become form as man to communciate with people, for example satanworshipping.

But, my point is... the Bible teaches us, there is only two comings, first coming was Christ's born as babe in Bethlehem, he died on the cross 33 years later, He ascend into heaven. The first coming was in his FLESH. Then, the second coming shall be visibly in His FLESH.

You mentioned on 2 Thess 2:1:

"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" is what DPT calls "the third coming"

I never saying it. You just added unto it. "The coming of the Lord Jesus Christ" is the only ONE future coming, not two comings.

2 Peter 3:4, 10-12 - This is a summary of both comingS and other events in the history future both to Peter and to us in 2004. The "Day of the Lord" - it starts with the pretribulation rapture/resurrection, continues through seven years of the Tribulation Period Judgment, continues through 1,000 physical years...

The context of 2 Peter 3:4-13 speak of the only ONE future coming. Notice verse 4 - they asked, "Where is THE promise of HIS COMING?". In their time, pretrib doctrine was not yet exist. They never hear of two phases of the second advent, because it was not teaching in their time. They were asked about Lord's coming, they were speak of the only ONE coming. They were not discuss about two comings, because it was not yet exist in their time.

Day of the Lord does not stretch into 1007 years. Bible teaches us, day of the Lord shall NOT come till AFTER the cosmic disturbance occur - Joel 2:31; Matt. 24:29. The definition of day of the Lord means in THAT DAY, the Lord shall judge the world.

By the way, both 'day of Christ' & 'day of the Lord' both are same defintion. Often, pretrib saying, both are distinct. Bible never saying it. Also, many pretrib saying of 2 Thess 2:2 - 'day of Christ' in KJV is mistranslation, it should be correct saying, 'day of the Lord. Actually, both are SAME meaning. Day of Christ IS the second coming. Day of the Lord IS the second coming. For what? To judge the world.

1 John 2:28-3:2 tells us, we are looking forward for His appearing, we all shall be like Christ, in his appearing. It speaks of the only ONE coming.

Rev. 1:7 - This is what DPT calls the 3rd coming

I never saying it. You just added unto it. Rev. 1:7 is very clear speak of the only ONE future coming of Christ. Rev. 1:7 refers with Matt 24:30. Both are same.

We all shall be rejoice to see Christ coming, while unbelievers shall be weeping same time. His coming shall NOT be a secert. I know that you saying his coming is not a secert. In fact, most pretribs teaching rapture is a secert coming. But there is no verse in the Bible saying His coming shall be secert. His coming shall be visibly and noisy too.

Rev. 16:14b-17 - This gathering for Armageddon is in preparation for what DPT has called "the 3rd coming"

I never saying it. You just added unto it. Rev. 14b-17 teach there is the ONLY ONE coming of Christ.

I like to compare what the Bible calls the second coming of Jesus to a tribulation period knife. The knife cuts the age of the gentiles from the Millennial kingdom of Jesus age. The knife is 7-years (2520 days, 84 months, two 3 1/2 years) wide

The book of Revelation is not written into chronological order. Many pretribs believe it is chronological order. Myself before used to believe it is chronological order. Now, I realized it is not chronological order, it have retelling events, cycles, and parallels all of these speak of toward the coming same time.

Rev. 1:7 - #1st coming
Rev. 6:12-15 - #2nd coming
Rev. 10:7 - #3rd coming
Rev. 11:15 - #4th coming
Rev. 14:14-20 - #5th coming
Rev. 16:14-16 - #6th coming
Rev. 19:11-21 - #7th coming

Does the Book of Revelation telling us there are seven comingS? No. these are retelling the events like as repeat and repeat like as replay. Seals, trumpets, and vials all are merging together toward His coming at the end.

The Anti-Messiah shall reign for 7-years, the Tribulation period, FOR IT IS WRITTEN in Daniel 9:26-27(nKJV)

The context of Dan. 9:24-27 focus only one ONE person - Messiah, the prince is Jesus Christ. The context of verse 24-27 saying nothing about Antichrist. The context of verse 24-27 discuss about the prophecy of the coming new covenant and salvation and Messiah. Daniel 9:24-27 already fulfilled that Christ put all sins to end and put offerings and sacrifices to end after his 3 1/2 years of ministry, he was cut off after 69th week, that means, He already make a new covenant with many on the DURING of 70th week - Daniel 9:27 - Mark 14:24. The context of Daniel 9:24-27 say nothing about seven year of tribulation period and Antichrist too. It focus on Messiah and Calvary already fullfilled 2000 years ago.

1 Thess 5:1-10 - 'day of the Lord'. Remember, in the Early Church, there was NO chapter and verse. Paul wrote them as epistles in his personal. The context of 1 Thess 4:13-5:10 still discuss focus on the coming of the Lord.

2 Thess 2;1-3 tells us, our gathering together shall [N]NOT[/B] come till we must see apostasy(#646- Greek) first, and shall face the revealed of Antichrist first. Clear, 2 Thess 2:1-3 cannot be pretrib. We must face Antichrist to persecute against us first - Rev. 13:7,10, and 14:9-12 BEFORE Christ come to gathering us together.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Here R = what DPT calls "2ed coming".
Here SC = what DPT calls "3rd coming".
---------------------------------------
Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy.
11SC. Time of sorrow.