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Which points are disagreed?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Gina B, Jan 28, 2004.

  1. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

    Dec 30, 2000
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    I'm posting the basics and asking which points you disagree with and why.

    1. Total Depravity (
    Man is dead in his sins
    Romans 5:12. Without the power of the Holy Spirit the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel
    Mark 4:11. This is why Total Depravity has also been called total inability. Man will know come to a knowledge of Christ on his own.
    Ephesians 2:1-5.

    2. Unconditional Election
    Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God's grace is not based upon any merit shown by the person receiving grace and not based upon his knowledge of who might accept the offer of the gospel or not. God has elected some for glory.
    Romans 9:15 and 21.
    He did this before the foundations of the world.
    Ephesians 1:4-8
    This does not mean that man is not responsible if he lacks belief. The bible makes that clear.
    Good works are a result of grace, not the result of a man's "decision". Think of how many people you know that will say that they believe in Jesus yet they do not act on it and it has no effect on their lives. They lack grace. Has their faith saved them? No, because it's of man, not of God.

    3. Limited Atonement
    Christ died for the church.
    John 17:9
    Matthew 26:28
    Ephesians 5:25
    Atonement was completed at the cross, not started.

    4. Irresistible Grace
    The elect WILL respond to the call of grace. John 6:44, and God leads his own to repentance Romans 8:14
    I Peter 5:10

    5. Eternal Security
    Lost my verses. (pretty pathetic, since half of this was copied) I'm sure most of you are familiar with them and the majority agree on this one anyhow. (sealed until the day of the Lord, no man shall pluck them out of my hand, etc.)
  2. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Aug 29, 2001
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    Total Depravity is taken by Calvinists to mean that man is incapable of responding to God unless and until God regenerates him first.

    It is based on the faulty concept that spiritual death means spiritual unconsciousness -- an inability to function spiritually.
    Romans 5:12 does say that death came to all men because all sinned. Ephesians 2:1-5 reiterates the universal condition of men, being dead in their sins until and unless the come to Christ.

    The point here that is under debate is actually not the sinfulness of man, but the meaning of spiritual death.

    If spiritual death meant what Calvinists say it does -- that total inability, then hell has no meaning, actually. Something dead in that way does not feel a thing. But you will see in Isaiah 1:18 that God is calling to the sinner, "Come, let us reason together..." How can this be said to a spiritual corpse?

    Jesus summoned for all who were weary and heavy-laden to come to Him. Is that 'all' only the elect? Are only the elect weary and burdened? Or is this call to all men everywhere? And if it is to all men everywhere, can only the elect respond to it? If only the elect can respond to it, then it is a mockery to the others, who will read those words but, in terms of Calvinism, be unable to respond.

    In addition, any man can come to an intellectual knowledge of Christ on his own these days, what with Bibles in just about every language, missionaries, the internet, etc. So that sort of knowledge, which can lead to one turning one's life over to Christ, is one thing. But after regeneration, or being born again, one is given eternal life by our Lord which He defined in John 17:3 as knowoing the Father and the Son whom the Father has sent. This kind of knowing is different and implies the intimate relationship of a bride and groom. THAT is the knowledge no unbeliever can have.

    In addition, if that is eternal life, then eternal death, or spiritual death in a continuing state, has nothing to do with being unconscious, but rather being separated from God.

    The idea that depravity equals inability to respond to God is nowhere found in the Bible. The Gospel is to be presented to the whole world because it is FOR the whole world, since God LOVED the whole world so much He sent Christ to die for us. Every man has the ability to understand and respond to the simple Gospel message. Depravity has nothing to do with understanding the simple, clear message of salvation. After all, who else would it be for?


    Unconditional election

    There is no such thing for the Christian believer. That is what I found out on that study on the elect. The only ones who are God's elect are the Jews. The concept of unconditional election is an imaginary concept probably born of a faulty knowledge of the Bible or a refusal to read in context or follow through with the references mentioned by the New Testament authors themselves.

    The idea of being called is also mis-used. The word means invited. It is the same word used by Jesus regarding being invited to the wedding feast in Matthew 22. Obviously many refused.

    God's call and election are said to be irrevocable in choosing Israel for the purpose for which He formed her. This is the context of that widely mis-used passage, which I also dealt with in the Elect thread.

    As far as the hypocrisy of those who play at Christianity, that has nothing to do with unconditional election! That has to do with basic hypocrisy. It also has to do with the deceit practiced by purveyors of 'easy believism' or 'cheap grace' where people honestly think they have become Christian by repeating some set of verbal phrases. One becomes a Christian when one gives up to Christ, believing on Him in the biblical sense, and the Holy Spirit then regenerates that person, which is also known as being born again.

    Man choosing God has nothing to do with man's works. It has nothing to do with anything that denies salvation is entirely by God's grace. The difference between Calvinism and the Bible is that Calvinists say this grace is extended to only a select few, whereas the Bible declares the world of all men to be the objects of God's love and mercy.


    Limited Atonement

    Calvinism rests on this. Limited atonement requires a special, predestined people. But Jesus died for all sin once for all. Read Hebrews.

    Yes, atonement was completed at the Cross. I am not aware of any arguement here regarding that (but then I haven't read every thread, either). However it was not for the church per se. It was for all men. Sin itself was atoned for, and that includes every sin by every person who ever lived. Christ did not leave that job unfinished. The church is what resulted from those who believed on Christ and thus received the benefits of His work on the Cross.

    But the atonement itself was total and there for all who would believe and obey.


    Irresistable Grace

    The fact is, Jerusalem itself resisted it. Israel resisted it. Judas resisted it.

    All manner of people resist it!

    God's grace is offered to all. It is often resisted.


    Perseverance of the saints, aka eternal security.

    Christ has not lost one. I doubt sincerely I will be the first. Of course eternal and absolute security with Him!

    I'm a one-point Calvinist!?
  3. massdak

    massdak Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Oct 27, 2002
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    helen says i am a one point calvinist

    dont you mean you are a minus 4 calvinist
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
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    GinaL: "4. Irresistible Grace
    The elect WILL respond to the call of grace."

    I disagree.
    Those who respond to the call of grace
    WILL be the elect.

    Do you have pretty feet?

    Romans 10:9-15 (Third Millennium Bible):

    that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
    the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in
    thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth
    unto righteousness, and with the mouth
    confession is made unto salvation.
    11 For the Scripture saith,
    "Whosoever believeth in Him shall not
    be ashamed."
    12 For there is no difference between the
    Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord
    over all is rich unto all who call upon Him.
    13 For "whosoever shall call upon the
    name of the Lord shall be saved."

    14 How then shall they call on Him in
    whom they have not believed? And how
    shall they believe in Him of whom they
    have not heard? And how shall they
    hear without a preacher?
    15 And how shall they preach unless
    they are sent? As it is written:
    "How beautiful are the feet of them
    that preach the Gospel of peace,
    and bring glad tidings of good things!"

  5. massdak

    massdak Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Oct 27, 2002
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    just a few points helen you say this&gt;Man choosing God has nothing to do with man's works. It has nothing to do with anything that denies salvation is entirely by God's grace. The difference between Calvinism and the Bible is that Calvinists say this grace is extended to only a select few, whereas the Bible declares the world of all men to be the objects of God's love and mercy.
    what does this verses mean to you?

    Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    helen also says this&gt;&gt;The idea that depravity equals inability to respond to God is nowhere found in the Bible. The Gospel is to be presented to the whole world because it is FOR the whole world, since God LOVED the whole world so much He sent Christ to die for us. Every man has the ability to understand and respond to the simple Gospel message. Depravity has nothing to do with understanding the simple, clear message of salvation. After all, who else would it be for?

    again i say review rom 3
  6. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Aug 29, 2001
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    We already did this, massdak.

    Paul is quoting a Psalm which begins, "The fool says in his heart, 'there is no God'".

    Check the context, please, as well as the reference and its context. Do you think the people to whom Paul was writing did not KNOW these Scriptures?

    If you honestly feel that all the 'un-elect', Cavinistically speaking, are fools who deny the very existence of God, then perhaps your are correct to use this verse the way you do. But if there are any at all who admit the existence of God and yet are not Christian believers, then you are mis-using this verse.
  7. AllOfGrace

    AllOfGrace New Member

    Jan 22, 2004
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    It seems like Arminians are always balking at what their perceived implications of the TULIP doctrines are.

    Have we considered the alternative.

    Total Depravity — man is completely unable. (Yes, Helen, I think dead does means "spiritual unconsciousness." I don't know of many conscience dead people.)

    Otherwise, instead of being totally unable, we are somewhat able. Arminians have to believe that there is a "little bit of good in the heart of everyone." The Bible does not bare that out.

    Unconditional Election — God chose based on nothing in ourselves. Otherwise, I somehow deserved the choosing. Arminians essentially make election a work of man saying "It is a free gift, but you must accept it," ignoring our inability to do that.

    Limited Atonement — the implication here are enormous! The entire Gospel is based on the principal of substitution. God's justice requires a payment for sin. If the atonement isn't limited in scope, then:
    1) It is limited in quality. It is not really able to cleanse completely because you need to "help" Christ.
    2) Then God is no longer just when He condemns anyone to Hell because Christ paid for their sins already.

    Irresistible Grace — What kind of all-powerful God can be resisted by man?

    Eternal Security — It frankly does not make sense to be a 1-point Calvinist. The argument would be that God has created man with free-will so he can choose Christ. However, once he chooses, God robs that free-will so he can't change his mind.

    Take them all or reject them all.
  8. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Aug 29, 2001
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    I'm not an Arminian, which I have stated dozens of times.

    You have used some false dichotomies below.

    God defines man's condition in Genesis 8:21: that every man's heart always TENDS or INCLINES toward evil from childhood. Our entire legal system is based upon the concept that this tendency can be fought! In fact, that is exactly what we raise our children to do. If the law did not have to fight our evil tendencies and was instead in line with the good that non-Christians say exists in people, then the law would be unnecessary.

    This tendency, or inclination, does not mean an unconscious heart. If it did, then the unregenerate could not be said to harden their hearts, as Ephesians and other books point out.

    The idea of spiritual death meaning spiritual unconsciousness is clearly denied by the Bible. In John 17:3 Jesus defines eternal life as knowing the Father and the Son. If death is the opposite, then it means separation, not unconsciousness or inability. In physical death, we know the person is simply separated from his or her body. The body is what we see, but that is like a car the driver has exited. We never figure the person him or herself is now as unconscious and rotting as that old shell!

    Death is separation, not unconsciousness for the person himself.

    Consider also God's call in Isaiah 1:18, which no one has replied to yet except once to pass it off as not relevant! It is quite relevant. God is speaking to unregenerate sinners, inviting (calling) them to "Come, let us reason together."

    If unregenerate man could not respond to the good, then it would be impossible for Paul to say they repress the truth in Romans 1. Repressing the truth means it was in view and consciously and deliberately shoved down.

    In addition, in the concept of Calvinism, the unregenerate/unelected can only choose the wrong. That means they are at least spiritually conscious enough to choose something! So take your pick -- if they are choosing the wrong, they are spiritually conscious. If they are spiritually insensate/comatose, then they could not even choose the wrong.

    Which is it?

    I cannot speak for Arminians, as I am not one. Are you saying that because the tendency of every heart is toward evil, that the heart can contain no good? I am not arguing for that, but I don't see how you can make the jump from what God says to your conclusion there. If you could explain that, I would be grateful.

    Nor does the Bible paint the picture of man being unable to respond to God. In fact the Bible is predicated upon the knowledge that man can and does respond to God, and that this response will determine his eternal destiny. This does not mean man can do anything to help with or maintain his salvation. But it does mean man can say yes or no to the offered gift. This is clearly indicated in the Bible. Consider, "Choose this day whom you will serve." And literally hundreds of other verses which indicate man's ability to choose.

    Choosing does not mean action, by the way. When I chose to accept Barry's proposal of marriage, that did not mean I was the one to proposed or that I was the one who married me! As a matter of fact, since we were 12,000 miles apart at that point, he arranged the entire wedding himself. All I had to do was get there and have a dress to wear! He did it all. Me saying yes did not mean I did any of that.

    God says clearly in the Bible why He chooses as He does. For instance, with the seven thousand reserved in the time of Elijah, it was because they had not bowed the knee to Baal. They may have broken every other commandment in the book, so they certainly did not DESERVE higher favor in terms of any law. But they preferred God above Baal. That was enough. In this case they were chosen not because of what they did, but because of what they didn't do. They had responded to the knowledge they had of God with faith in, or at least fidelity to, Him.

    We are told over and over again to believe and obey. Both are possible in at least a seed form before regeneration. There are the unregenerate who certainly do their best to obey the Ten Commandments. They are not locked into permanent disobedience by their sin natures. They truly are able to fight against them to some extent. That doesn't mean they are rid of them -- it means they are definitely fighting, however. They could not do that if they did not only have some concept of good, but the ability to obey to some extent, at least some of the time.

    Also, accepting something is not a work. Build me a house and give it to me and you are going to figure that my acceptance of your gift was a work? After all you have done? I hardly think so!

    Payment for sin, all sin, was made. The Bible says clearly that man is not hell-bound for sin, but for unbelief. Unbelief results in the visible sins which are mentioned, but if you check all the verses about salvation, you will find, with John 1 and 3 being good beginning points, that it is belief that opens the door to salvation and unbelief which leaves it closed and earns damnation.

    Eventually EVERY knee shall bow. But right now God has allowed us choice in the matter. That is the clear Gospel message.

    False dichotomy.

    First of all, I was teasing about the 'one point Calvinist.' I do have a good Calvinist friend who refers to me as that, though!

    But no, whereas the first four points are disputed by the Bible itself, the last is clearly presented by the Bible as true. Eternal security is Biblical. And there is no reason anyone should be told they have to take that along with the other four points, which are not Biblical.
  9. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

    Dec 30, 2000
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    I agree with that. Satan has the power to influence lives, God has the power to CHANGE them. A person can believe in God and it can change NOTHING in their lives. I find it hard to believe that both God and Satan can influence us, and one would believe that they can personally overcome that influence on their own either way. There is not any outstanding character of man's nature definitive in those that are saved that caused them to choose which influence they would heed, just look at all the different types of people and personalities in Christianity. If one DOES believe that, then at the least they have to admit that God convicts and leads some more drastically more than others, making it a small step for some to have faith and a giant leap for others. That's not scriptural. One has to have a new nature to even see and hear the truth. I can't recall any place in the bible that shows a person inching their way toward the truth and meeting God halfway. You either have a change of heart (nature) and confess the truth or you don't, and that's dependant on whether God opens the eyes of your heart.
    Our father is the devil. We will always cling to his ways until God changes us and adopts us as his own.

    Ok, call it something else then. We are called to be conformed to the image of God's son. This does not take place if we are not regenerated, see above! We're blind not until we choose to see.
    Your study on election was interesting. I had some disagreements with it but before I say too much I'd like to know who is Israel? The same Israel is meant in Revelation as in all other passages of the bible? I'm also post-trib, so we're quite a mess away from understanding each other on that whole post I think, and it's a whole 'nother discussion that I just don't want to get into at this point in time.

    Limited Atonement
    That makes absolutely no sense. If your sins are atoned for they are paid for and there is no debt. Unbelief is sin. Did he die for all sins EXCEPT one, and that is one that we can atone for ourselves?

    Did Judas have a choice? Was Jesus death the back-up plan in case the devil's influence won?
    Again, it doesn't make sense.
    I'd really like you to read this link: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/piper/irresistable.html
    Here is a part of it: The doctrine of irresistible grace does not mean that every influence of the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted. It means that the Holy Spirit can overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible.

    In Acts 7:51 Stephen says to the Jewish leaders, "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit as your fathers did." And Paul speaks of grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30; 1 Thessalonians 5:19). God gives many entreaties and promptings which are resisted. In fact the whole history of Israel in the Old Testament is one protracted story of resistance, as the parable of the wicked tenants shows (Matthew 21:33-43; cf. Romans 10:21).

    The doctrine of irresistible grace means that God is sovereign and can overcome all resistance when he wills. "He does according to his will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand!" (Daniel 4:35). "Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases" (Psalm 115:3). When God undertakes to fulfill his sovereign purpose, no one can successfully resist him.

    Yay! LOL One down, four to go!
    I really do dread calling myself ANYTHING, because it comes with associated hate or love. Eke!
    Glad you can jokingly call yourself this, because there are people who think total depravity=calvinism and will not only call calvinists unsaved but will refuse to associate with them. Grrr! I think half the issue basically boils down to "is faith totally and completely a gift from God or not?" I believe it is. It's a gift.

    I know this post wasn't the longest or best worded and I really didn't want to do it, but Pappa Bear made it irresistable. ;)
    BTW remind not to try to type posts of this nature while the kids are awake! I started at ten this morning and typed a sentence or two at a time throughout the day. I made a note to myself in one part to fix before I posted it and now I can't find it so if it's still in here please point it out because I looked and looked and can't find it!
  10. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    I DO NOT AGREE with Calvin on any of his five points:

    1. Total Depravity
    Man is not so totally depraved as to not being able to respond to the Gospel. Man has ALL that God gave him with which to respond. However, man is a disobedient creature beginning in the Garden with Adam and Eve. Being disobedient does not mean that man does not have the capacity to obey! Many do!

    2. Unconditional Election
    God Sent his son, God gave us his words, God made us able to hear the word, and to be able to believe. The choice is ours, and when we choose to believe in His Son. God gives us His Holy Spirit to enable us to change. And the Believers in Christ or God are placed among the ELECT, along with God’s chosen race the Jews!

    3. Limited Atonement
    There is no such thing as limited atonement! There is limited understanding of the Atonement but the Atonement is limited only in the scope that scriptures limit it to and that is ALL THE SINS OF THE WORLD! So if you are on Mars, Atonement does not apply to you! But of course that too is relative. For it God’s word is on Mars, then Atonement applies there too.

    Jesus atonement is for the sins of the world, all the sins of the world for all times. Every man who sins, and All have sinned, have their sins atoned for so that NO man need die for the sake of sin. That is what atonement is all about! The penalty for sin is removed from the Salvation equation. There is no more death due to sin because Jesus died in our stead...for sin! There is the second death but that death is faced only by those who refuse to believe!

    4. Irresistible Grace
    There is no such thing as Irresistible Grace. There is God’s grace that prevails equally for all mankind. No man experiences more of God’s grace than any other. God’s grace is God’s exhibited behavior toward mankind. It is his dominant behavior in which mankind is enabled to hear the word, and believe in Him. It is while God behaves toward mankind with grace, that man can exercise his ability to sin and live to tell about it, and we all have our stories! It is while God’s grace prevails that man can hear the Gospel and come to belief in God. Thus changing his life forever.

    5. Eternal Security
    Eternal security is available only to those who have the condition of faith in God. If you die from the flesh without having faith in God, you do not have eternal life! You are judged and cast into the Lake of Fire, which itself has a limited life!

    “The elect WILL respond to the call of grace.” ????
    It is only when God deals with HIS ELECT, that they will respond. And HIS ELECT are the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL!