Who destroyed Job's stuff?

[xdisciplex]

God or Satan?

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Satan moved God against Job, by wanting to test Job. But satan's true agenda was to destroy Job without casue.

God was not out to destroy Job

 

[xdisciplex]

But God said to Satan that Job is in his (Satan's) hands! And then later it shall have been God? This is a bit illogical, isn't it?

 

[Claudia_T]

it was God because He allowed Job to do it... But it was Satan because he was the one who actually did it to Job.

 

[xdisciplex]

So you think Satan was the executor who killed Job's children and who did all this?

Because the interesting part of this is that if Satan was the one who did all this then this would mean that Satan can control the weather because he sent fire from heaven.

Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

And the servant even attributes this fire to God!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

many things are attributed to God which are not, and many to satan which are not.

 

[xdisciplex]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
many things are attributed to God which are not, and many to satan which are not.

Indeed. This reminds me of the tsumani a few years ago. It only took a few days until prophecies and words from God came up on christian boards where people quoted Jesus saying that he was the one who caused the tsunami....
Such things can really distort your picture of God because you don't know if it was God or not. Maybe it wasn't God and christians make it look like it was God and others read this and think how terrible the christian God is.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Satan moved God against Job, by wanting to test Job. But satan's true agenda was to destroy Job without casue.

God was not out to destroy Job

my oh my....this sounds like Satan was controling God.


God allowed Satan just as Claudia said, so in fact if God had the power to stop satan and did not it was God that was in full control.

Notice that thoughout the whole book Job never blaimed Satan. It is clear that God gave Satans hand to do as he pleased short of taking Jobs life, but Job only wanted to be right with God and does not care about what Satan is doing. What a great picture for us to follow.


In Christ...James

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

God Himself said satan moved Him against Job. My statement is not wrong.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by xdisciplex:
God or Satan?

Satan! God says "He is in your hands" -- Satan charges "YOU have set a hedge about him" -- God simply removed that barrier of protection and gave Satan permission to harm as was Satan's nature and desire.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[xdisciplex]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by xdisciplex:
God or Satan?

Satan! God says "He is in your hands" -- Satan charges "YOU have set a hedge about him" -- God simply removed that barrier of protection and gave Satan permission to harm as was Satan's nature and desire.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]This is what I believe, too.

But why does God say in Job 2:3 that Satan moved him against Job? This seems like a contradiction.

 

[BobRyan]

Job 1
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
7The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
8The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
9Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
10"Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
11"But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face."
12Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2
Job Loses His Health
1Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.
2The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
3The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."
4Satan answered the LORD and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life.
5"However, put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face."
6So the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life."
7Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.

In this example Satan seeks to charge God "Put forth YOUR hand" but God makes it clear "Behold he is in YOUR power" and scripture makes it clear "Satan went out and smote Job".

[ May 24, 2006, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[xdisciplex]

Yes.
But Job 2:3 seems to say something different, this is what confuses me.

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

This sounds like Satan started this whole thing. But wasn't it God who challenged Satan? I mean God knew exactly what would happen when he started with this "did you see my servant Job" stuff.

 

[BobRyan]

God removed his protection. If a Father is argued into removing his protection from one child - protection against a wild dog - does the Father still "take no credit/responsibility"??

But still the scripture is correct when He says to Satan "behold he is in YOUR power".

The only way BOTH are true is that God is taking responsibility "for saying such a thing" to Satan.

 

[whatever]

Twice Job said that God did it (1:21 and 2:10) and both times Scripture says that Job spoke the truth. The correct answer is that both did it, along with some Sabeans and Chaldeans as well.

 

[xdisciplex]

But didn't God know exactly what would happen when he asked Satan this stuff? If Satan had come to God and asked him wether he can destroy Job then it would be much easier to understand but it's the other way around. It seems like God challenges Satan. Why did he do this? Atheists use this to attack God and to make it look as if God was playing games with Satan and Job's the poor victim. In the end Job is even richer and has new children but his old children are dead. Sure, you can simply say that they were in paradise but somehow it still seems like a lot of collateral damage.

 

[Claudia_T]

satan can control the weather...

Rv:13:13: And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by xdisciplex:
But didn't God know exactly what would happen when he asked Satan this stuff? If Satan had come to God and asked him wether he can destroy Job then it would be much easier to understand but it's the other way around. It seems like God challenges Satan.

God states a fact about Job - that HE IS righteous. That is going to be "good news" for all those in harmony with the King of the Universe!

That can not possibly be viewed as "a bad thing".

However Satan shows HIS OWN nature when He challenges God with a compelling argument that God is simply bribing Job!

God denies that Job only serves God out of bribery!

To PROVE the point He ALLOWS Satan a certain level of doing harm to Job!

The key here is that THIS WHOLE THING only makes sense in a "free will" context where a group of intelligent beings is "determining answers" based on "emperical data" compelling evidence!

But as we can see in the chapters - it is not God that is "learning".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[xdisciplex]

Would God also have allowed this if he had known that Job would not pass the test?

And since God already knew the outcome why didn't he simply leave it with that? When he knows the result of a scenario already then he doesn't have to play through it anymore.

 

[BobRyan]

True - the entire exercise is not for "God's benefit" at all.