Who did Christ come to save?

Mark Osgatharp · Oct 26, 2005

"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the save shall judge him in the last day."

Note:

1. Jesus came to save "the world."

2. Some of that "world" He came to save will not believe on Him and will not be saved.

3. Therefore the Calvinist idea that all whom Jesus came to save will be saved is bogus.

Mark Osgatharp

TomMann · Oct 26, 2005

If Jesus came to save the whole world (all persons) He failed. I don't happen to believe that ever happens.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

If Jesus is the word, and the word shall accomplish.....

1 Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

But of him.... repeat of him..... are ye in Christ Jesus..... Not of you, nor of your decision, nor of your choice, nor of...... blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

...... repeat..... of him..... of God!!!!!!

Mark Osgatharp · Oct 26, 2005

Tom,

So now address the text in which Jesus said that some of those He came to save would disbelieve and reject Him. I might add to that passage,

"He came unto his own but his own received him not."

That explicitly says that Jesus came to some people who yet rejected Him.

Mark Osgatharp

whetstone · Oct 26, 2005

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
1. Jesus came to save "the world."
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If God's eternal purpose was to save every single person who ever lived how miserably He has failed. You misinterpret the word 'world' here to mean 'all people of all time.' It was never meant to stretch that way.

2. Some of that "world" He came to save will not believe on Him and will not be saved.
Click to expand...

So again you are confronted with the question: Did Christ fail?

3. Therefore the Calvinist idea that all whom Jesus came to save will be saved is bogus.
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And yet the 'Calvinist' idea is drawn almost word-for-word from Christ's own mouth.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

God bless.

Daniel Allen
www.spurgeon.us

whetstone · Oct 26, 2005

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
"He came unto his own but his own received him not."

That explicitly says that Jesus came to some people who yet rejected Him.
Click to expand...

Correct. The Jews. Why are you arguing the case for Total Inability? That's not helping your anti-Calvinist viewpoint. God bless.

Daniel Allen
www.spurgeon.us

TomMann · Oct 26, 2005

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Looks to me like he saves all that he was given to save.....

Monergist · Oct 27, 2005

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the save shall judge him in the last day."

Note:

1. Jesus came to save "the world."

2. Some of that "world" He came to save will not believe on Him and will not be saved.

3. Therefore the Calvinist idea that all whom Jesus came to save will be saved is bogus.

Mark Osgatharp
Click to expand...

So what you are saying is that Jesus came to save NNE.

That's the only conclusion to be made to your argument; He 'came to save the world' but ended up not saving anybody because his death did not purchase the redemption of ONE SINGLE PERSON.

No friend, it is your Christ-dishonring scheme that is Bogus.

Mark Osgatharp · Oct 27, 2005

Not one of you has touched my argument. You can define "the world" as narrowly as you wish - the fact remains that Jesus said He came to save "the world" and yet some of those out of that world He came to save would disbelieve and therefore reject Him. Again, His words are,

"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

Notice the character of "the world" under consideration.

1. They hear His words but don't believe them.

2. They are not judged by Christ because He didn't come to judge them but to save them.

3. They will be judged by Jesus' words in the last day.

Mark Osgatharp

Mark Osgatharp · Oct 27, 2005

Originally posted by whetstone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
"He came unto his own but his own received him not."

That explicitly says that Jesus came to some people who yet rejected Him.
Click to expand...

Correct. The Jews. Why are you arguing the case for Total Inability? That's not helping your anti-Calvinist viewpoint. God bless.

Daniel Allen</font>[/QUOTE]The text says He came to His own. So why did He come to them if not to offer them salvation? Did He offer them salvation with no intention of saving them?

Mark Osgatharp

whetstone · Oct 27, 2005

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Not one of you has touched my argument.
Click to expand...

I agree. "Smashed" would be a better verb.

Notice the character of "the world" under consideration.

1. They hear His words but don't believe them.

2. They are not judged by Christ because He didn't come to judge them but to save them.

3. They will be judged by Jesus' words in the last day.
Click to expand...

This doesn't prove who the world is. Let me ask you a question: Was Jesus part of the world as a human? Yes? Did he come to save himself? No? Then it's not 'all men of all time.' If you take every instance of the word 'world' and take it as 'all people of all time' what a bizarre theology you come up with! Look at this!

Jhn 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

All people of all time followed Jesus!! Right?

Jhn 18:20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

Jesus spoke openly with all men of all time?

Act 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

Did all people of all time worship Diana?

1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

All people of all time will be condemned?

Why not compare scripture with scripture when you think about theology. That will keep you from error. God bless.

Daniel Allen
www.spurgeon.us

whetstone · Oct 27, 2005

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
The text says He came to His own. So why did He come to them if not to offer them salvation? Did He offer them salvation with no intention of saving them?
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He came to PAY for sin not OFFER to pay for sin. Not once did Jesus say he had an offer for people like a used car salesman. An 'offering' in the OT was a payment. It was something burned for the people. When Jesus died- he didn't ask for our permission to do it. He just went and did it. Salvation isn't an offer- it's a command! REPENT REPENT REPENT!!!

If God offered salvation- no one would take it. He must take away our heart of stone first and break us into repentance. He has commanded repent. Some of 'his own' did not repent. Where is the doctrinal discrepancy with that? All men are sinners.

God bless.

Daniel Allen
www.spurgeon.us

Mark Osgatharp · Oct 27, 2005

Whetstone,

You stilled haven't touched the Lord's words -much less "smashed" them.

Jesus said He came to save "the world" and yet some of that world He came to save would reject Him. It doesn't matter if you limit "the world" in the text to one eyed Chinese rice farmers, the fact still remains that the Lord said He came to save a world, some of which would reject Him.

Now please address what the Lord actually said.

Nor did you answer the question about "he came unto his own but his own received him not." You say He did not come to offer them salvation. Then, tell me, for what did He come to them?

Mark Osgatharp

TCassidy · Oct 27, 2005

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the save shall judge him in the last day."

Note:

1. Jesus came to save "the world."

2. Some of that "world" He came to save will not believe on Him and will not be saved.

3. Therefore the Calvinist idea that all whom Jesus came to save will be saved is bogus.

Mark Osgatharp
Click to expand...

Nonsense.

When it is said that Christ died "not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world," 1 John 2:2, or that He came to "save the world," John 12:47, the meaning is that not merely Jews but Gentiles also are included in His saving work; the world as a world or the race as a race is to be redeemed.

Sometimes the term "world" is used when only a large part of the world is meant, as when it is said that the Devil is "the deceiver of the whole world," or that "the whole earth" wonders after the beast, Revelation 13:3. If in 1 John 5:19, "We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the evil one," the author meant every individual of mankind, then he and those to whom he wrote were also in the evil one, and he contradicted himself in saying that they were of God. Sometimes this term means only a relatively small part of the world, as when Paul wrote to the new Christian Church at Rome that their faith was "proclaimed throughout the whole world," Romans 1:8. None but believers would praise those Romans for their faith in Christ, and in fact the world at large did not even know that such a Church existed at Rome. Hence Paul meant only the believing world or the Christian Church, which was a comparatively insignificant part of the real world. Shortly before Jesus was born, "There went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be enrolled,"..."and all went to enroll themselves," Luke 2:1, 3; yet we know that the writer had in mind only that comparatively small part of the world which was controlled by Rome. When it was said that on the day of Pentecost, "there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven," Acts 2:5, only those nations which were immediately known to the Jews were intended, for verses 9-11 list those which were represented. Paul says that the Gospel was "preached in all creation under heaven." Colossians 1:23. The goddess Diana of the Ephesians was said to have been worshipped by "all Asia and the world," Acts 19:27. We are told that the famine which came over Egypt in Joseph's time extended to "all the earth," and that "all countries came into Egypt to Joseph to buy grain," Genesis 41:57.
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A little understanding goes a long, long way.

Mark Osgatharp · Oct 27, 2005

TCassidy,

You fellows are not listening.

If I accept everything you said it still doesn't address the Lord's words. He says that He came to save a "world" some of which would reject Him, who, therefore, He would leave to the judgment of the last day.

The issue here is not how big "the world" Jesus came to save was. The issue is that He said that some of the world He came to save would reject Him. Therefore Calvinism is a dead issue.

Mark Osgatharp

TCassidy · Oct 28, 2005

47 "And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

Robertson's NT Word Pictures:
If any one (ean tis). Third-class condition with ean and first aorist active subjunctive (akousêi) of akouô and same form (phulaxêi) of phulassô with negative mê. But to save the world (all' hina sôsô ton kosmon). Purpose clause again (cf. hina krinô, just before) with hina and first aorist active of sôzô. Exaggerated contrast again, "not so much to judge, but also to save." See Joh 3:17 for same contrast. And yet Jesus does judge the world inevitably (Joh 8:15; 9:39), but his primary purpose is to save the world (Joh 3:16). See close of the Sermon on the Mount for the same insistence on hearing and keeping (obeying) the words of Jesus (Mt 7:24,26) and also Lu 11:28.

BobRyan · Oct 28, 2005

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Tom,

So now address the text in which Jesus said that some of those He came to save would disbelieve and reject Him. I might add to that passage,

"He came unto his own but his own received him not."

That explicitly says that Jesus came to some people who yet rejected Him.

Mark Osgatharp
Click to expand...

There is no escaping that argument by "redefining world to JUST mean those HE decided to direct His ministry to - those HE arbitrarily selected in pure partiality" - since as the text says "HE CAME TO HIS OWN and HIW OWN received Him NOT".

Those trying to trap God in the box of "All that are His OWN MUST ACCEPT HIM" have their argument debunked in John chapter 1 as you point out.

Even "redefining the term WORLD" does not help them in this case.

In 1John 4:10 we see that God sent His Son to be "The Savior of the WORLD" and so it is not surprising that He is the ATONING SACRIFICE "For our sins and NOT FOR OUR SINS only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

Where else in the Bible does God use the SALVIFIC purpose of Christ's sacrifice as applying to "THE WHOLE WORLD" and yet it does not really MEAN "The WHOLE WORLD"?

Answer - nowhere.

In Christ,

Bob

TCassidy · Oct 28, 2005

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Those trying to trap God in the box of "All that are His OWN MUST ACCEPT HIM" have their argument debunked in John chapter 1 as you point out.
Click to expand...

Your problem is that nobody has made such an assertion. We all know that "his own" in that verse refers to the Jews, and that "as many" expands the outreach to include the Gentiles. To try to say that "his own" means either "the elect" or "the world" is just pitiful exegesis.

billwald · Oct 28, 2005

"If Jesus came to save the whole world (all persons) He failed"

We can't know that until "the fat lady sings."

BobRyan · Oct 28, 2005

1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD".

It is too late to hope that 1John 4 won't say that.

But in a free will system -- there is always the intelligent choice of those IN the system to be considered. In a world of robots it would have been as you say Bill.

In Christ,

Bob

HanSola2000 · Oct 28, 2005

Great passage and questions Mark. Of course, our Calvinists friends CANNOT, due to inability, answer the questions in an honest fashion.

They simply pretend Jesus didn't say what He said, and then accuse Him of failure! What dementia this! Its not a failure as far as He is concerned becasue He sovereignly decided to give men the freedom to choose in regards to many things, including salvation. That's His "sovereign" set up. Man is made like God, and has self-determination within him, as God does.

Calvinists don't like this becasue it does not fit with their warped views of "Sovereignty" which is taught nowhere in the Bible anyway.

So Calvinists DENY AND CONTRADICT Jesus Christ the Lord. He said He came to save the world, some of whom will be lost despite His good intentions. Period. Calvinism is a lie. God did not fail---man does, and as a matter of fact, Scripture puts it just that way when it warns lest we "fail of the grace of God".

So, ONCE AGAIN, the clear verses about WHO and HOW MANY God intended to save is simply DENIED by Calvinists while they ask stupid, blaspehmous, irreverant questions, like the Scribes and Pharisees did. Calvinism is a pathetic, UnScriptural joke.

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