Who does God Love?!

Notice I was not talking about "Calvinists" per se but a particular stripe of Calvinists. I am "Calvinistic" in my theology (although I do not prefer a human-created term like "Calvinism" to define my beliefs).

And regardless of your stripe, I would say yes I would assume most Calvinists (and non-Cals for that matter) believe less will be saved than lost.

I am not. I am saying do not tell them with confidence that God loves them. Do the math. Most people are "hated" by God. Chances are your children may be one of the hated ones. There is no way to know for sure until their election is "revealed". So just be honest with them and let them know that there is a strong possibility they are not one of the elect and therefore "hated" by God.

Do you believe God in his very nature is love?

 

Matt 7 says that the MANY do NOT find eternal life but the FEW enter by the NARROW gate and enter into eternal life.

This contrast within the people of God (Christ did not addressing pagans in Matt 7) between the MANY and the FEW is embarrassing to those who make God an "arbitrary selector" selecting out from among the MANY - the FEW that He will "care to save".

By contrast GOD says He so loved THE WORLD!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Whom He "does not love"???

Are "all His Children going to heaven"???

Does the Bible say "The WHOLE WORLD GOES TO HEAVEN"??? (after saying God so Loved the WORLD)

In Christ,

Bob

 

Have "always been hated" by God John P??

The "many" of Matt 7 John P??

In Christ,

Bob

 

Whim was not a good word... in a hurry.

 

Actually if God hates the majority of his creation, killing on a whim makes logical sense.

 

Do not make God to be like you though you imagine him to be.... His complex motives are far above our comprehension. He can kill those He loves also. It pleased Him to see the sacrifice of His son also. He has many nuances of love and hate. He hates sin and those who commit it, yet while WE WERE YET SINNERS, Christ died for US... this is love.

 

That is why I refuse to label myself by a human-invented system such as Calvinism.

You are missing the point. Some have said that God does not love everyone. That being the case, God must a) go against his very nature, which is love & b) hate the majority of his creation since few find the narrow way.

 

Hello Bob.

Yes indeed from before the creation of the world.

The many of Matthew and the many of Romans. You talk back to God.
Why not oppose the few loved in Matthew with the many loved in Romans 5? I don't care how many man why do you?

The children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God are the few or the many. Since not all are born of God, and seeing as it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy then not all are loved are they? Love does not fail after all does it? But then why does He still blame us?
God loves in mercy. Not all receive mercy.

john.

 

The Calvinist model you descrive shows a god that is FAR from impartial! Rather He is fickle and arbitrary --- randomly saving and striking humanity as it pleases Him.

As JohnP states "God HATES from the foundations of the world" the MANY of Matt 7.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1572/2.html#000028

That is a Calvinism that deserves some attention from Arminians.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Bob.

With respect I said Yes indeed from before the creation of the world. Before the creation from eternity.

As my seven year old boy says to me, "Bring it on man." I see you have no answers.

john.

 

Many Calvinists here have come claiming that God "hates the wicked" and that God's justice and holiness makes Him hate fallen humanity "from the foundation of the world".

So here is a question for Calvinists --

"Who are the fallen sinful children of Adam"??

"Who are the wicked"??

OF all the fallen sinful depraved children of Adam does God just hate "the wicked"??

Or are you simply using circular reasoning to make those arguments against the Arminian point that God IS IMPARTIAL when it comes to salvation as 2Peter 3 shows Him to be unwilling for ANY to perish and as Romans 2 SHOWS that He impartially judges such that "Judgment is passed IN FAVOR of the righteous" (in Daniel 7) resulting the ones given eternal life as SHOWN in Romans 2.

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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As JohnP states "God HATES from the foundations of the world" the MANY of Matt 7.
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John - I did not mean to limit your view of God's hatred - I am simply saying that "at the least" that eternal hatred you mention is "From the foundation of the world" and this of course is to contrast with the Rev 5 view of the "Lamb".

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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That is a Calvinism that deserves some attention from Arminians.
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John you are just not getting it.

I post those direct questions so I can get a print of your direct answers and store them as quotes.

You see John - I have a number of "other Calvinists" on this board outside of you and RC that love nothing more than to accuse Arminians of "making things up about Calvinism".

As it turns out - they do that "primarily" when those Arminians are referring to views that you and RC have published.

I love to get quotes from you that clarify your position and SHOW why Arminians keep referring to the fact that such views ARE being posted by Calvinists HERE on THIS BOARD!!

It is also helpful to have your quotes (and RC's as well) as they show a logical conclusion for the winding road of Calvinism.

Now about that question regarding the "wicked" that you claim "God so hates" -- How many of the fallen sinful depraved children of Adam were "not wicked" so that God would "not so hate them"?

Or was that a case of Calvinism using circular reasoning again?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Bob.

Don't be shy Bob name names please. This is not a statement that I would make is it? It is not God's justice or holiness that makes Him hate fallen humanity it is because He chose to hate certain of the race He was to create.
All men fall short and all are wicked but some are loved because He chose to love them while the others are damned just because.

I'm sure but I thought a misquote is a misquote. What I write needs to be quoted not a shortened paraphrase because I take a lot of care over what I say (usually ).

You do have trouble with language do you not? How can eternal mean from some point? From everlasting to everlasting is eternal not the foundation of the world. I get this strange feeling you are trying something on.

Not interested man you tell me what you mean I'm not accepting your bible reading plan. If you have a point make it and support it with chapter and verse.

Your next post is fine. That you publish what rc and me say to you is of no consequence to me but His word goes out and does not return empty to Him. What I say here is what I say everywhere why should it concern me? Bring them on. Why not tell me where so's I can see you are using my words correctly as you have not shown that you quote me correctly even to my face.

Just goes to show how much you have understood I suppose but we are what we are by the grace of God and this has had an effect in all of us.

We were chosen before Adam fell. We were lost in the fall and that is why Jesus came to save His people from their sins. The Good Shepherd has been told by a man that He did not find all His sheep. And as I said men do not go to Hell for what they do or do not do but God is my Salvation praise His name. :cooler: People do not go to Heaven for what they do or don't do but God is my Salvation. Praise Him.

Say what you mean please it's hard to answer charges when I do not know what you mean. If I have used such if such is wrong but I don't know if it was because I don't know what you mean if you know what I mean.

Here we go for the quote of the week: God has always hated those He chose to hate so that He could show us that He can do what He likes and cause those who were saved to see what they missed.
What if He did this? What's it to you? You talk back to God.
RO 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- What are you going to do about it?

john.

 

Heeeeeeeee's back.

Welcome back johnp

 

Yes indeed from before the creation of the world.

The many of Matthew and the many of Romans. You talk back to God.
Why not oppose the few loved in Matthew with the many loved in Romans 5? I don't care how many man why do you?

The children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God are the few or the many. Since not all are born of God, and seeing as it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy then not all are loved are they? Love does not fail after all does it? But then why does He still blame us?
God loves in mercy. Not all receive mercy.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]John, explain why Jesus would command us to love our enemies, if in fact He does not.

Matthew 5:43-48 Jesus gives us standards to follow concerning love, telling we are to love those who hate us, spitefully use us, persecute us. He "...makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." God loves His children MORE, but this doesn not mean God hates anyone as is falsely claimed using a handful of verses that do not necessarily mean "hate".

 

Hello James.
You are too kind. It's good to be back.

Hello webdog.

Don't do as He does do as you are told. You have made man and God equal? He is not bound to the law but is the law.

If hate does not mean hate then please let me know what authority you have to teach that hate does not mean hate. Are you a linguist and a bible translator? Are you saying the translators of all the translations have erred and hated should read 'loved less'?

Rev 19:15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
Do you believe God hates no one? If yes explain to me where God's love is in the verse above please. If no could you tell me at what point God's love turns to hate and why, if love never fails 1 Cor 13:8, His love failed?

john.

 

Don't do as He does do as you are told. You have made man and God equal? He is not bound to the law but is the law.

If hate does not mean hate then please let me know what authority you have to teach that hate does not mean hate. Are you a linguist and a bible translator? Are you saying the translators of all the translations have erred and hated should read 'loved less'?

Rev 19:15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
Do you believe God hates no one? If yes explain to me where God's love is in the verse above please. If no could you tell me at what point God's love turns to hate and why, if love never fails 1 Cor 13:8, His love failed?

john. </font>[/QUOTE]We have been around this block on your sabbatical. Go back and do a search of "hate". The word can means "despise, loved less than"...not necessarily our emotional "hate" that calvinists love to brand God with. The Bible tells us "God is love", nowhere in scripture does it tell us God is hate. I will not add to that as calvinist do.

I have not made man and God equal, so do not slander me. I clearly pointed out what God commands us. I do not believe God would command us to do one thing, while He does the exact opposite. This would make God sleazy, which I will not make Him. You can add characteristics to God's nature, that is between you and Him.

I do believe God hates no one. Why? "God so loved the WORLD", the Bible says it, not me. I know what you think "world" means, but that takes a blatant twisting of scripture to fit you theology, so please don't come back with your "world" argument.