Who is He? A Trinity? A Oneness?

[3AngelsMom]

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

1. Child to be born
2. Son to be given
3. Government WILL BE upon shoulders
4. Called Wonderful
5. Called Counsellor
6. Called the Mighty God
7. Called Everlasting Father
8. Called Prince of Peace
9. No end to His government
10. Upon the Throne of David

Who is He?

 

[Brother Adam]

I suppose it depends on who you think "he" is now doesn't it? Because note one of the names used: Father.

The facts have been more than well presented.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Adam,

So, who do you think 'He' is?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Brother Adam:
I suppose it depends on who you think "he" is now doesn't it? Because note one of the names used: Father.

The facts have been more than well presented.

I don't think that 'Father' is a name. It is a title. Jesus is His name!

Just something to think about.

MEE

 

[Yelsew]

John 10:30 "The Father and I are one".

Seems pretty definitive to me!

 

[Major B]

From "Word Pictures in the Greek New Testament:"

John 10:30
One (hen). Neuter, not masculine (heis). Not one person (cf. in Gal 3:28), but one essence or nature. "By the plural sumus(separate persons) Sabellius is refuted, by unum Arius." So Bengel rightly argues, though Jesus is not referring, of course, to either Sabellius or Arius. The Pharisees had accused Jesus of making himself equal with God as his own special Father (John 5:18). Jesus then admitted and proved this claim (5:19-30). Now he states it tersely in this great saying repeated later (17:11, 21). Note used in 1 Cor 3:3 of the oneness in work of the planter and the waterer and in 17:11, 23 of the hoped for unity of Christ's disciples.

 

[Major B]

As to the basic question, is He a Trinity, is He a Oneness? The answer is, yes, He is both at the same time.

The Son is God (Jn 1:1-3, 14, 18), the Father is God (John 5 and numerous other places), the Spirit is a person and He is God (Jn 14:16, 26, 15:26, Acts 5:3-5), yet there is only one God (Dt 6:4-6). There is no slight of hand here as Sabellius would have it; God is not changing masks to appear three when He is an absolute oneness. The Father, Son, and Spirit each manifest their Presence simultaneously at the Baptism of Jesus (Nat 3:16-17).

This does not and cannot add up in human understanding of human math or physics. We speak of the nature of God. To try to understand the Trinity will result in madness, to deny the Trinity will result in damnation. Jesus told the Pharisees (Jn 8:24), "if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins...". And John tells us that if we do not confess the doctrine concerning the Father and the Son, we are lost (1 Jn 2:18-23, 4:1-6, 2 Jn 7-11).

 

[Major B]

Some good Trinity verses

Trinity—Mat 28:18-20, Mat 3:16-17, 2 Cor 13;14, Is 48:16-17

Plurality-Gen 1:15, 11:6-8, Is 6:8
--Makers--Job 35:10, Ps 149:2, Is 54:5
--Creators-Ecc 12:1
--Elohim-Gen 1:1
--Faces-Gen 4:16, Lev 22:3, 1 Chron 16:33, Ps 51:11, Ps 139:7, Ex 33:14-15, Dt 4:37, Ps 27:8-9

Father—Mk 1:1, Gal 4:4, Jn 1:18, Jn 3:16, Jn 14:31, Mat 11:27, Jn 1:1-2, Jn 3:35, Jn 17:5.

The Son
Called God—Jn 1:1-14, Jn 20:28, Rom 9:5, 1 Jn 5:20, Is 9:6-7, Heb 1:4-14
Worshipped—Is 42:8, Ph 2:9-10, Acts 7:59-60, Rev 5:6-14

Honored—Jn 5:22-23

Works:

Creator—Jn 1:3, Heb 1:1-3, Preserver Col 1:17, Sends Spirit, Jn 16:7, Forgives Sins—Acts 5:30-31, Gives Eternal Life—Jn 17:2-3

Attributes:

Self Existence Jn 8:58, 5:26, Eternity, Jn 1:1-2, Omnipotence, Mt 28:18, 11:27, Omniscience, Jn 1:48, Omnipresence, Mt 18:20
Equal With Father: Jn 10:15, 30, Phil 2:6, Col 2:9-10, Jn 5:17-24

Jesus Is Jehovah:
Jn 12:39-41 cf Is 6:1-10

Rev 1:17 cf Is 44:6
Ex 3:14 cf Jn 8:58, 18:6
Tit 1:3-4 cf 2:11
Is 43:10-12 cf Lk 2:10-11
Is 45:21, 60:16, 48:16-17, Hos 13:4

Holy Spirit:

Personality-- Jn 14:16, 26, 27, Jn 15:26-27, 16:7-15, 1 Cor 12:11, Jn 3:5-8.

Deity, Acts 5:3-5, 1 Cor 12:12-13, 18, Job 33:4, Gen 1:2, Job 26:13

Sovereignty--Acts 20:28 Acts 13:2-4, Mat 4:1

Jehovah: Lk 1:68-70 --2 Pet 1:20-21
Is 63:14--Dt 32:9-12
Acts 28:35-37--Is 6:8-9

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Major B:
From "Word Pictures in the Greek New Testament:" </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />John 10:30
One (hen). Neuter, not masculine (heis). Not one person (cf. in Gal 3:28), but one essence or nature. "By the plural sumus(separate persons) Sabellius is refuted, by unum Arius." So Bengel rightly argues, though Jesus is not referring, of course, to either Sabellius or Arius. The Pharisees had accused Jesus of making himself equal with God as his own special Father (John 5:18). Jesus then admitted and proved this claim (5:19-30). Now he states it tersely in this great saying repeated later (17:11, 21). Note used in 1 Cor 3:3 of the oneness in work of the planter and the waterer and in 17:11, 23 of the hoped for unity of Christ's disciples.

</font>[/QUOTE]Can a son of man be anything except man?
Can the Son of God be anything by God?
If you believe that the son of God can be nothing other than God, then you must agree that Jesus who is the Son of God is God.

 

[Major B]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Major B:
From "Word Pictures in the Greek New Testament:" </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />John 10:30
One (hen). Neuter, not masculine (heis). Not one person (cf. in Gal 3:28), but one essence or nature. "By the plural sumus(separate persons) Sabellius is refuted, by unum Arius." So Bengel rightly argues, though Jesus is not referring, of course, to either Sabellius or Arius. The Pharisees had accused Jesus of making himself equal with God as his own special Father (John 5:18). Jesus then admitted and proved this claim (5:19-30). Now he states it tersely in this great saying repeated later (17:11, 21). Note used in 1 Cor 3:3 of the oneness in work of the planter and the waterer and in 17:11, 23 of the hoped for unity of Christ's disciples.

</font>[/QUOTE]Can a son of man be anything except man?
Can the Son of God be anything by God?
If you believe that the son of God can be nothing other than God, then you must agree that Jesus who is the Son of God is God. </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe you misunderstood me. Jesus is God. Jesus is Man. Jesus is the God-Man, the Second Person of the Triune God, Father Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[Yelsew]

My point is that in accordance with the way God created all life, that which is man can be nothing other than man. That which is monkey can be nothing other than monkey.

That which is God can be nothing other than God!

In Jesus, God took on the form of man in order to be the propitiation for the sins of all mankind. The one who Atones, the Sacrificial lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.

He did that so that sin, which is a work, could not be counted against us, and so our salvation could NOT be the result of anything we do, but rather a purely gracious act in accordance with the faith that we have in God.

Faith is not accumulative, you either have it or you do not. If you have it you are saved by God's grace, if you do not you are cast into the lake of fire, in accordance with God's Justice.

He walked among us as one of us. He came to his own but his own received Him not. Now made himself available to all mankind through each individual's personal faith in Him. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.... There is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved.

 

[Stephen III]

Yelsew,

Faith is not accumulative, you either have it or you do not. If you have it you are saved by God's grace, if you do not you are cast into the lake of fire, in accordance with God's Justice.

Please explain the faith is not accumulative statement above in relation to the following scriptures:

2 Corinthians 10:15

"Neither do we boast about things that cannot be measured in regard to the work done by others.] Our hope is that, as your faith continues to grow, our area of activity among you will greatly expand,"

and,

2 Thessalonians 1:3
"We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing."

Thanks, and God Bless
Stephen

 

[Yelsew]

Faith may grow, but you cannot stack faith upon faith and make it accumulate. Faith grows similarly to the growth of an embryo from conception of a male part and a female part into a living being. Once the conception takes place that which is conceived grows by division not by multiplication. Yes what started out as one firtile cell, becomes two, but by division of the one into two and not by multiplication.

Faith is like that, it grows from a seed, and by division it becomes a giant tree.

Yes one could call that accumulation, but accumulation in my world implies the gathering of many things thus accumulating. Where faith starts as a tiny seed and grows though nurturing, remaining faith all along, thus becoming greater in dimension, and effect. The same faith different magnitude and scope.

Therefore one who has faith has all the faith necessary for salvation. One who does not have faith cannot be saved.

 

[Stephen III]

Yelsew,

[/QUOTE] Where faith starts as a tiny seed and grows though nurturing, remaining faith all along, thus becoming greater in dimension, and effect. The same faith different magnitude and scope.

Very well said, I couldn't agree more. I won't get caught up in semantics, that is whether I would call that accumulating in faith or not.
However, If I may ask a follow-up question:

In regards to:

Therefore one who has faith has all the faith necessary for salvation. One who does not have faith cannot be saved.

Is it necessary for faith to grow, if one has true faith, in regards to your correlation between faith and salvation?

Thanks,

 

[Yelsew]

Is it necessary for faith to grow, if one has true faith, in regards to your correlation between faith and salvation?

In regard to salvation faith, Jesus said he who believeth in me, even on my name shall be saved. How much faith does it take to believe on the name of Jesus? Not much! So if faith the size of a mustard seed is sufficient to move mountains into the sea, How much faith is sufficient for God to know you have faith in even the name of his beloved Son? It is such faith that determines our eternal destiny! Those with such faith are NOT JUDGED, those without faith ARE JUDGED ALREADY by their lack of faith.

Regarding faith itself, the growth of faith is a natural occurance that happens as one studies God's word, and applies what is learned, in the way one behaves. One cannot NOT gain greater faith, if one is hearing the word, and not just hearing but doing the word. The Natural product of such activity is growth in one's faith.

I trust this answers your question.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Our pastor was teaching this past Sabbath about Jesus and His role in Creation.

"How could He have been the creator if He isn't God?"

The question is based on a false pretense.

Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Malachi knew that ONE God and ONE Father created Him.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

God created all things BY Jesus Christ. (the Word) He wanted to make known to us the fellowship of this 'mystery' that had not been known yet, because He was HID in God.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

It is BY Jesus that God does EVERYTHING. Jesus is God's Vicegerent. His Highest Messenger. 'Who is like God?' Jesus has the preeminence in ALL things, including Creation. Making Him the FIRST in all things. HOW could He be the first in all things, if He isn't the firstborn of all creation?

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Fear GOD, give glory to HIM, worship HIM who made everything!

NOW, who made everything? God? Jesus?

The answer is simple.

It was God, who created all things, through Jesus, who was the Firstborn of ALL Creation!

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Kelly,

If only God is to be worshipped, if we worship Jesus, are we committing idolatry?

 

[A_Christian]

So the 7th day and the JWs are of the same mind.
GOD is a total of a sum for me. Jesus, is the
physical manifestation of GOD. Whenever and
wherever GOD revealed himself in a form, I believe
that the essence of that form was Christ.

The Father is the director and administrator.
The Father is incapable of physical form
(He is Spirit). Christ is the physical essence
of GOD. The Holy Spirit of GOD is that essence
that has the ability to indwell. He is the
possessive motivative essence of GOD.

If one could destroy any part of the WHOLE GOD
then GOD's power to communicate and interact
would be diminished if not destroyed.

The three essences are ONE GOD. These essences
have always existed together.

The closest example we hace is ourselves. We
have a body soul and spirit. The soul is
our life force. The spirit is what motivates
us to react. The body is what everyone can see.
Remove any part and we are incomplete and yet
we would continue to exist (death is a good example).

I will admit that my explanation is poor; however,
I am not GOD and GOD hasn't told me EVERYTHING
about EVERYTHING yet (nor am I capable of
understanding EVERYTHING. I must trust in how
GOD leads me.

 

[A_Christian]

Firstborn seems to indicate that Christ is
PARAMOUNT and the term has nothing to do with HIS
position of creation but in creating.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi Kelly,

If only God is to be worshipped, if we worship Jesus, are we committing idolatry?

Didn't you already ask me that in the other thread?

We worship Jesus, the Son of God, because GOD (His Father) told us to.

The commandment doesn't say 'don't worship'. It says not to have any gods before Him.

Do you put Jesus before His Father?

God Bless,
Kelly