Featured Whose Son is YHVH, the Christ?

Who then are the witnesses you say that Isaiah 43:10 says were PRESENT and VIEWING that event "BEFORE THE WORLD WAS"???

Another straw man argument. No one on this forum denies that The Son is the VISIBLE representative of the Godhead. Again, have you ever been introduced to the word "Theophany"????

What you fail to understand is the term YHVH is applied EQUALLY to all three Divine Personages of the Godhead and that is so very simple to prove. Indeed, the quotations I have already given prove it is equally applied to both the Father and the Son.

Theophanies are no more transformations into actual physical substance than the appearances of angels are transformations into actual physical substance (Heb. 13:1). Both are mere physical in APPEARANCE only. It is not a about PHYSICAL MATTER or PHYSICAL SUBSTANCE with either angels or theophanies but merely PHYSICAL APPEARANCES. Furthermore the Theophanies are not always the same in form or appearance.

Your view is not even consistent with itself much less the Biblical revelation and that is easy to see and to prove. Who are those witnesses in Isaiah 43:10? How could they be present and viewing YHVH being formed as a God "before the world was"? Why is YHVH used to identify the Creator of heaven and earth when you deny YHVH created but only "made" the world but the Father created? Why is YHVH said to be everlasting without beginning, as in the scriptures already presented unto you? Why does YHVH repeatedly say He knows of other God except himself if He is "formed" a god by God the Father? These are only a few of the problems your position has to deal with.

 

Jesus said Abraham saw his day and was glad. This is about all are alive to God, even those who have died. This is about Abraham living in the spirit saw Jesus’ day, Jesus’ day, his coming to earth.

Angels longed to look. This shows it is about Jesus coming to earth.

1 Peter 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

Jesus reveals himself to those who obey.

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

The people Jesus was speaking to, they did not recognize Jesus as God because they do not obey God. They do not know God because they do not obey God.

 

Revelation 19
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, THAT NO MAN KNEW, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


Could it be, yes, I think it is that the new name of Jesus is the name of God revealed!

 

I have just explained though you have actually ignored it. A new name is not a hidden name its new. And as God reveals himself to us humanity applies new titles to God. Initially God was just known as Elohim and as time passes people give him new titles (names) as he shows more of himself, thus Adoni comes when people understand his Lordship and so on an so forth. Thus Jesus Christ being God who is spoken of in Revelation will aquire for himself a new name by his actions.

That is what happens when you interpret scripture on your own! You misread scriptures all together. Of Course scripture supports the Trinity.

And verse that support a singular God and no other

And

The bible is clear about its Trinitarian Doctrine. You hold a gnostic interpretation of scripture.

And to my baptist friends this is exactly what I'm talking about what happens when you are the sole authority when it comes to interpretation of Scripture. So much for sola scriptura.

Its a poor conclusion that you have come to when God the Father is Glorified so is the son and the Holy Spirit. So of course the Son and the spirit are both glorified as is the Holy Spirit. Context is everything.
I don't deny scriptures what I refute is your interpretation which has no bases in the text but in your own faulted interpretation.

 

Isaiah 43:10 does not teach that YHVH was "formed" because YHVH is not the subject of the verb "formed." The subject of the verb "formed" is "No God" and that is a reference to some other God in addition to him "besides me." He is asserting his ETERNAL EXISTENCE as God. Just as Paul did when he said of Christ:

Col. 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

No God existed before him and no God existed after him. Isaiah repeats this same truth even using the very same phrase "ye are...my witnesses" and makes that crystal clear to anyone who can read English:

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 43:10~11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (YHVH), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. v11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

These texts are as plain as the nose on your face! There is no other God in existence but YHVH and YHVH is the same name for all three Divine Persons of the Godhead:

Isa, 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

There are TWO in verse 6 speaking and both claiming to be YHVH. Note the possessive pronoun "and HIS redeemer the LORD." The nearest antecedent to that pronoun is "the LORD, the King of Israel. Here is absolute proof that YHVH is equally ascribed to BOTH persons and there are TWO persons here.

 

Dear Readers,

Notice that Seve could not respond to the passages below. He simply ignored them and reasserted his theory which has no Biblical basis at all. He is quick to attack me personally but incapable of dealing with the Biblical data I provided. The below scriptures do not need my comments as they self-evidently destroy his whole theory.

 

What would be so wrong to say Jesus is God the visible created by God the invisible?

Does this scripture not say that very thing?

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Then all things made through Jesus, God the visible.

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

 

I do not believe you Biblicist.

 

God created the FLESH of Jesus. God did not create Jesus the visible God because prior to the incarnation He existed as God and He manifested himself visibly toward men in various theophanies. Isaiah 43:10 does not teach what Seve is asserting it teaches. The grammar denies it. The immediate context denies it. Isaiah uses the very same termonology "ye are...my witnesses" in another text and explains exactly what he means. He does not mean God "formed" another God who is YHVH! He is simply asserting His eternal existence as God. If there is no God formed before him and if there is no God formed after him and if he knows of NO GOD but HIMSELF that is a denial that he was "FORMED" at all!

As you say DON'T ADD YOUR OWN WORDS! The text does not say or mean "firstCREATED" or "firstCREATURE" but "firstBORN"! Now go look up the usage by God of "firstborn" throughout the book of Genesis and you will see it does not refer to the first son actually born but to the birthright or heir of all a man's property which was never Cain but the second born Abel, never Ishmael but the second born Isaac, never Esau but the second born Jacob, etc., etc. It means God's righful heir of all creation because it is rightly his because he CREATED IT for his own glory.

 

If Jesus existed as God, then you are saying Jesus did not exist before he came to earth, but the scriptures say Jesus existed with God before he came to earth.

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

How else do you think Jesus was God and existed with God, if not created by God before all things?

First born is first born.
First born over all creation, over all creation, it is simple. Why do you want to change it from all creation to mean over all Christians?

 

What a surprise! I am shocked! But why not, both of you have a common spirit.

 

Hello Seve,

I would like to discuss this more with you. I have been thinking of these things and am glad to study them with you.

Since Jesus is and was the visible image of God, even before the creation of the world and Jesus is God’s Word, literally God’s Word, tell me what you think then about God’s voice being heard when Jesus was baptized, and again when Jesus transfigured and God spoke from the cloud.

The invisible God must have made His voice (words) heard now without Jesus the Word. Is that biblical to you?

In addition, what do you think about Stephen seeing the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God? Do you think Stephen saw the invisible God?

 

Prior to the incarnation the Second Person of the Godhead was co-equal, co-eternal with the First and Third Person's of the Godhead. God the Second Person took upon himself the flesh nature of man in the womb of Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit. The man was Jesus of nazereth the promised "Messiah" or "Christ" of the Old Testament. His flesh did not become deity nor did his deity become humanity but He was "The God with us" clothed in humanity.

Jesus the God/man existed as God previous to becoming the incarnate God/man. The Greek word to express this transaction is the term "ginomai" that which BECOMES something that it was not formerly. The Greek term that demands his continual existence as God previous to creation of all things is the term "hen" which is an imperfect tense which demands continuous existence without a beginning or ending point in the past. The Greek term "hen" is used in John 1:1 whereas the Greek term "ginomai" is used in John 1:14.

That is the etymological root meaning but that is not its meaning by USAGE by God in his word and I pointed that out in the very book that provides an account of Creation - the book of Genesis. The firstborn son was NEVER the heir but the second born son was the "firstborn." You may scoff at that all you like but there is not one thing you can do to change it and that usage was established by God Himself as he OVERRULED the literal first born son and denied him the right of FIRSTborn! The term by useage simply means the rightful heir.

 

Are you saying God was two and the exact same and co equal, and the Holy Spirit made three but was not the same? Are you saying God two then became God one when Jesus came to earth?

Therefore, it does sound as if you are saying God was two and the exact same, three with the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit was different, then God became one when He sent the second part of Him to earth.

What does that have to do with Jesus being firstborn over all creation?

 

No! The Godhead has always been THREE Persons who are all CO-equal, CO-eternal and all equally share the very same attributes that make God to be God. Meaning they are all eternal, all immutable, all omnsicient, all omnipresent, and omnipotent.

No! The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the Father - they are three eternal distinctions or personages sharing one common substance and attributes which make God to be God.

No! I am saying that the eternal second Person of the Godhead "TOOK UPON HIMSELF" the additional human nature in the incarnation without ceasing to be God but only concealing the manifestation of God's glory under human skin or "God WITH us" - Immanual.

It means that Jesus is the RIGHTFUL HEIR or OWNER of all creation.

 

Then explain who Jesus was before the he came to earth.

Jesus is God! So, how do you explain now? Jesus WAS God in the beginning, but you say no, he was the Son. How was he God and the Son?

You see though, with your explanation, there is no explanation. I hope you do not get all rude now, just try to stay calm and discuss kindly.

The scripture says Jesus was first born over all creation. Then the scripture goes on to say 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Explain why the scriptures would start off saying that Jesus was rightful heir of all creation, then the scriptures immediately start talking about the beginning when the creation was made.

 

I post this again because it is irrefutable. Seve cannot overturn the fact that Isaiah 43:10 is repeated in Isaiah 44:8 and there it is crystal clear that what they are witnesses of is the testimony of YHVH that YHVV is the ONLY true God existent and YHVH is the name for a plurality of Persons in the Godhead as proven by Isaiah 44:6.

Even the Hebrew Grammar of Deuteronomy 6:4 demands a plurality of Persons identified as YHVH:

4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD [YHVH] our God [elohim] is one LORD:[YHVH]

The hebrew term "elohim" is a plural. The Hebrew has a singular = one; a dual = two and the plural = three minimum.

Therefore, The LORD our PLURAL GOD of THREE mimum is still ONE YHVH in number. That is why some call it a "Trinity" or better yet "tri-oneness".

That is why the plural "elohim" is found with the singular verb "create" in Genesis 1:1.

That is why the singular image is found with the plural pronoun "we" in Genesis 1:26.

All three person identified as YHVH are found in Isaiah 48:16-17:

16 ¶ Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.


The speaker identifies himself as "I" and "me" in this text and the nearest previous antecendent is YHVH in verse2 or "the LORD of Hosts" and the nearest following antecedant is YHVH in verse 17. This description "The LORD of Hosts" is distinguished from another personage caled "LORD" in Isaiah 44:6:

Isa, 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.