WHOSOEVER believes

DT said:

And why should a person in Mongolia who has never heard of Jesus be drawn to Him ? That brings your 'all men' theology crashing down. If Christ will draw all men as in all mankind to him, then he will not just draw a Mongol to Him, He will draw, and has drawn all Mongolians to Him already, because He has already been lifted up.

If He has already been lifted up (assuming that we have the mutual understanding the term 'lifted up' means crucified), then all men have already been drawn to Him, since He said He will , and He did not say He might , or [/b] could [/b]. He said will which is a word signifying purpose.

If all men have already been drawn to Him, then either all men are already saved, or will without fail be saved (since as Paul asked in Romans 9:19, who hath resisteth His will ?).

If not all men are saved, because not all men will come to Christ, and all men are capable of resisting the Holy Spirit, then Christ is a miserable failure.

Also, how can Christ draw a Mongolian to Himself, unless someone with the Gospel goes to Mongolia, and preach there ? Like the Arminians like to quote, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" and also, "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

 

It doesn't say "all men", either. It says "all". The word for "men" in the Greek does not appear in this verse. Translators add it according to their interpretation, and interpretations differ. That's why the NKJV translates it (interprets it) differently than you have.

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL PEOPLES to Myself."

 

Brother Skandelon:

I hope your weekend is off to a good start.

BROTHER SKAN SAID: You just can't deal with John 3:16 can you? I know you want to move to other texts and if you read through my posts you will see that I deal with every single one of these verses you have brought up, but that is not what this thread is about. If you don't want to deal with John 3:16's implications, post it somewhere else.

...If you don't want to deal with this verse


ME (BROTHER JOE): Brother Skandelon its not that I dont want to deal with this verse, it's that you dont like the way I deal with it- by viewing this implicit verse in light of the explicit verses in the Bible. One cannot isolate one verse to prove a premise or doctrine from the Bible-heck if I did that I could prove to you that the Bible teaches that there is no God!

Let me explain what I mean. Take for example if I were to say to you, " Brother Skandelon, I believe that the Bible teaches one gets to heaven BY THEIR GOOD WORKS and to prove it we are ONLY going to discuss the verse in James 2:24 which states,"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Now Brother Skandelon, without being able to utilize any other verses but this one from the Bible, could you now prove to me justification by grace/faith alone? Perhaps now with this example you can understand why your request above is Biblically unreasonable.

By grace,

Brother Joe

[ July 09, 2004, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: BrotherJoe ]

 

Brother Skan:


YOU BROTHE SKAN SAID: If you don't want to deal with this verse just deal with this statement:

"Whoever registers can become a member of the Baptist Board."

Joe, please tell us how can that POSSIBLY imply that the moderators have preselected a few members who will certainly register and become members?


ME: Brother Skandelon, your analogy isnt even remotely comparable to that of the John 3:16 example. Why? It takes much less faith to register on Baptist Board at www.baptistboard.com and believe that I will become a member than it does to believe what John 3:16 is asking for us to
believe.

Just think about it. What does it take for a mature sophisticated intellectual to have child like faith to believe Jesus Christ is fully man, yet fully God, that he NEVER sinned or thought a bad thought, that though he was eternal God he suffered on a urine blood stained Roman cross as a criminal, AND that somehow my sin was imputed to him on that cross, and that further God died, but wait it doesnt stop there...and than he rose again and that by my merely believing these facts I will spend eternity in a place called heaven!!?? What does it take for a rational to believe all that, to believe the UNBELIEVABLE ...nothing less than God alone giving you his spirit so that I can have faith... because if it were left up to my own free will....I WOULD NEVER BELIEVE IT!

Saved wholly by grace,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Doubting Thomas:


YOU: It can be argued by the Arminian that God draws ALL men to Himself, for this is what Christ says in John 12:32


ME: Brother Thomas, IF you believe that God draws all men, since we all have the exact same nature inherited from our ancestor Adam, why then do we all respond in different ways to the calling of the gospel, some rejecting and some accepting? This different response alone by people to the gospel call indicates either
1) We dont all have the same nauture to begin with
or
2) God regenerates some sovereingly giving them a receptive heart to receive the gospel.

I take the 2nd conclusion, which one do YOU take doubting Thomas?

God Bless you,

Your brother in Christ, Brother Joe

 

Brother Joe:

A clear Biblical illustration of your example is the thief on the cross.

There he was, just a while ago railing at the Man on his left. Angry at himself, angry at the crowd, angry at the Romans, angry at almost everybody, and certainly angry at Jesus on his left.

Then, a while later, the Bible says, He turns to Christ and (1) calls Him Lord, (2) asks Christ to remember him (3) acknowledges Christ is a King with a kingdom, (4) believes Christ's promise to Him.

Well, now, that's just like a private laying bleeding, torn, and dying on the ground, bullets whizzing by, his unit all dead, bombs exploding all around,sure death staring him in the face, and turning to his sergeant and telling his sergeant to get him out of there and keep him alive, while his sergeant is lying next to him, equally torn to bits, leg or hand blown off, just as profusely bleeding, pale and eyes glazing, and just as near to death as he is.

 

Thank you! This is one of the points I was trying to get to from one of the threads on what makes the difference -- if free will is true, then how do you account for one person "choosing" to believe, and another "choosing" not to believe? When asked, Arminians generally respond with a tautology (they choose differently because they are able to choose differently) or retreat one level back (they choose differently because they are inclined to choose differently -- which raises the question, why are they differently inclined, etc.)

There are no answers without giving man at least partial credit for his own salvation, which is why Arminians avoid this issue.

 

That's a magnificent analogy, thanks. I never heard that before.

 

Your argument, clouded as it is by faulty Calvinist premises, presents a false dichotomy:
"1) We dont all have the same nauture to begin with
or
2) God regenerates some sovereingly giving them a receptive heart to receive the gospel."

In fact there is a third option, which is the correct option:
3)Individuals, though they share the same fallen nature and cannot seek God without His initiative, still are endowed with volition and can respond to God's gracious drawing either in the affirmative or the negative. Those who respond affirmatively in faith and repentence are the ones regenerated. ("Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and new spirit." Ezekiel 18:31)

It's fruitless to ask, as does Mr. Nptreley, what inclines one to respond positively or negatively, because to do so betrays a philosphical commitment to determinism which is itself ultimately incompatible with volitional choice. While our volition is indeed effected by our fallen world and fallen nature it is not reducible to deterministic causes contained therein. By God's loving grace we can choose the good and we can respond to His salvation by His power, or we can choose bad and reject it thus spurning His gracious activity. In other words, when God is graciously drawing a sinner at that "moment" he has a free choice.

 

Not at all. Do you make decisions in a vacuum? No, of course not. You have intelligence, emotions, logic, knowledge, genetic preferences, and all of these (and more factors) work together to produce an inclination to choose one way or another. None of these factors has anything whatsoever to do with determinism.

Even if you imagine a totally naturalistic world without God at all (evolution is true, for example), you still make your decisions according to your inclination. You are inclined to decide to eat because you are hungry. You may not choose to eat because your curiosity is stronger, and you are MORE inclined to investigate some item you found on the road. But, at that given moment, you are EVEN MORE inclined to take a nap because you didn't get much sleep last night. Or you may choose against eating, investigating and sleeping, because you notice that a tiger is about to attack you, which makes you even MORE inclined to run and hide.

There is no determinism anywhere in the above scenario, but all your decisions are determined by inclinations, some of which are driven by internal desires, others by chance, and and others by external events.

So the question remains -- given that free will is true, why does one person choose to accept the Gospel and another choose to reject the Gospel?

Or, put another way, when one of those "whosoever" believes, what is the reason that person believes and another does not? Free will is not the answer, because it only tells you someone has the ability to make the choice. It does not tell you why one person says "yes" and another says "no". They choose differently because they have the ability to do so is also not the answer, because that is simply a tautology -- you're only saying that free will is free will, which isn't saying anything at all.

So what's the answer?

 

Hey, why do triangles have three sides? If you say they are are three sided because triangles have three sides are you really answering me, or are you using a tautology? Perhaps its both--the answer is tautological because a triangle by definition has three sides.

Similarly a free will is by definition "free". It is the ability without force or coercion to choose between two options. Therefore, to look for a cause (other than the agent himself) for a free decision is unnecessary for it is self-determined and not programmed by inclinations or external factors.

Again, by God's grace this is the choice fallen creatures are given in response to God's merciful initiative.

We might as well ask what caused Adam to sin? It couldn't be any sinful inclinations for He was created upright and innocent. Was it Eve? Satan? God? Did any of these coerce Adam to sin against his will? If so why is he responsible? If not, what caused him to sin?

How about Lucifer? Who or what caused him to sin? Wasn't he created highest of the angels? Where did the sinful act come from? A sinful urge? If so, how did that urge get there? God? Or was his choice made in a vacuum?
Conversely, why did 2/3 of the angels not rebel? What inclinations or urges led to their decisions? What was it about these angels that was different than the other angels if they were all created with the same angelic nature?

Just some questions to ponder.

 

You're welcome.

 

Brother Thomas:


YOU: By God's loving grace we can choose the good and we can respond to His salvation by His power, or we can choose bad and reject it thus spurning His gracious activity.


ME BROTHER JOE: Im glad to see you think are more righteous than those evil sinners who spurn his grace, afterall YOU by your free will made the righteous decision to accept Christ and they by their free will made the evil decision not too...right?

Brother Joe

 

Brother Thomas:

YOU: Similarly a free will is by definition "free". It is the ability without force or coercion to choose between two options. Therefore, to look for a cause (other than the agent himself) for a free decision is unnecessary for it is self-determined and not programmed by inclinations or external factors.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ME BROTHER JOE: Brother Thomas,since, according to your definition above free will decisions are NOT determined by external factors, and I assume you also believe we have the same nature,***** why then do people with the same nature who are UNAFFECTED by external factors in their decisions end up make DIFFERENT decisions regarding the gospel????**********

Also, may I point out according to your definition of free will, since the will is unaffected by external factors the external wooing of the Holy Ghost would have no effect because it is outside of the sinners nature.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Hey Joe,
Perhaps if you go back and read my posts again, you might find my answer. Better yet, why don't you answer some of the questions I posed. If you can do that you will have the "answer" that you are ostensibly looking for.

(BTW--it's the "external wooing" of the Holy Ghost that allows for us to have a free choice.)

 

DT said:

Where in the Bible does it say that he does not have sinful inclinations simply because he was created upright and innocent ?

Wouldn't God Himself know ? Why did God have to test Him if God knew Adam will not have the inclination to sin ?


Consider this verse:

You mean God knew Abraham in and out, this son of fallen Adam, but, he did not know the inclinations of His first creation ?

I'd love to hear what you have to say in answer to your own question about Satan and the fallen angels.

 

Yeah, Joe, I'm patting myself on the back even as I write this.

Umm...look at my first phrase again: " By God's loving grace we can choose the good..."