Why do people go to Hell?

[dr396]

Based on Scripture and your interpretation of it, why do people go to Hell? And this is not a Calvinism/Arminianism question. (So, please no answers like "because they were predestined before all time and space to be vessels of wrath for the glory of God"). What I mean is inside of time and space what empirical actions of men and women bring about the consequence of God casting them into Hell?

D.R.

 

[Watchman]

Originally posted by Watchman:
My knee-jerk reaction to your question was to simply say neglect.
But upon further thought I believe you must break these people down into two groups.

First, is the world on the whole. In this case, I believe it is because of a faulty view of God. That is: god is Allah, Buddha, was once a man, or, by human reasoning, doesn't exist. Jesus was just another prophet, Michael the Archangel, or satan's brother.

Second, is the group that have heard the truth and yet do not believe. Here, I believe it is pride, "I am quite allright on my own, thank you."
Of course, you know that you have excluded the Calvinist's here, because, for the staunch Calvinist, your prohibited answer is exactly what they would say here.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Sin -- Rev 20:11-15; Rev 21:8; etc.

 

[Helen]

The Bible is very clear about this. Please read John 3:16-21.

 

[GODzThunder]

Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned and have come short of God's glory or expectations. Romans 6:23 says that the wages of those sins are death. We know this and yet we willingly sin. Sin is a choice not an accident so we must be held accountable. You do not accidentally rob a bank and you do not accidentally murder a man (not manslaughter, murder). Romans 20:14,15 says that death & Hell were cast into the lake of fire forever. The great judgment mentiones that those not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. Jesus himself mentions hell MORE than heaven. It is a literal place where Christ warns time and time again. His whole death on the cross was so that we did not have to bear the pains of Hell. When we are saved THAT is what we are saved from, Hell being the payment of our sins.

 

[GODzThunder]

to more simply answer your question though, we go to hell because we choose to. God says that to earn heaven you must live a holy life (equal to Christ in every way). We fall short but we choose to fall short. We, knowing the judgment and punishment of sin commit that sin anyways. I know Hell is the wage of sin yet I lied, stole & cheated many times in life with that knowledge.

 

[Helen]

If we go to hell because of our sins, then Jesus' work on the Cross was not enough. We also must pay. They wages of death must be paid twice in that theology.

But Jesus says differently...

He says that it is those who do not believe who are damned.

Sins are just the outward expression of an unregenerate heart, and God judges the heart. If the person has refused the truth (Romans 1), Christ being The Truth, then the person is given over to their sin nature. But the cause of the sinning is suppression, or refusal, of the truth.

That is the only sin which cannot be forgiven, and yet even it was atoned for.

No, our sins do not send us to hell. All of us sin. We all belong in hell by that standard.

But the sins have been taken care of. The question is, as presented so well in John, what are you now going to do with Christ? Believe and your heart is changed; you become a new person who does not want to sin, even though you sometimes do anyway. Refuse Christ and you end up being given over to your sin nature completely, and those sins then testify against you, declaring the condition of your unrepentant heart.

 

[Daniel David]

Actually, it says that those who don't believe in him are condemned already. So if they are already condemned, then they are condemned by their sin.

Note that Revelation 21:8 lists "unbelief" as a sin along with adultery, fornication, etc.

Belief is the only way to escape the judgment.

As far as sin goes, sin begins in the heart. Read James 1. It isn't just the action.

Our sin holds everyone in condemnation. That is why a person must be saved. Once a person believes in Christ, he passes from death to life (as the Scriptures say).

 

[Helen]

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already BECAUSE HE HAS NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF GOD'S ONE AND ONLY SON.

At least, that's what John 3:18 says....

It looks to me like the reason is given pretty clearly.

 

[Pastor Larry]

If we go to hell because of our sins, then Jesus' work on the Cross was not enough. We also must pay. They wages of death must be paid twice in that theology.

This is absolutely backwards. If Jesus paid for our sins on teh cross, and then we go to hell for our sins, then sins are piad for twice. If Jesus paid for even one sin for which man goes to hell, then Jesus death was not good enough.

There are just so many problems here, including the fact that Scripture explicitly and without any obfuscation denies this teaching.

He says that it is those who do not believe who are damned.

Yes, and unbelief is a sin. If people do not go to hell for their sins, then they do not go to hell for unbelief. If Jesus paid for all sin, then unbelief was paid for.

That is the only sin which cannot be forgiven, and yet even it was atoned for.

How do people go to hell for a sin that was atoned for?? YOu have just made God unjust, by saying that he requires a double payment for some sins.

No, our sins do not send us to hell. All of us sin. We all belong in hell by that standard.

But those who come to Christ in faith and repentance are reckoned as righteous. They are no more sinners in the eyes of God. Paul says there is no condemnation for them.

Rev 20 and 21 make is clear that man goes to hell for their sins.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already BECAUSE HE HAS NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF GOD'S ONE AND ONLY SON.

At least, that's what John 3:18 says....

It looks to me like the reason is given pretty clearly.

But that does not contradict any other Scripture. They do go to hell for their unbelief. They to to hell for their sins.

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The truth is still the same: If Christ paid for all sins, then he paid for the sin of unbelief. If he did not pay for the sin of unbelief, then he did not pay for all sins, and his work on the cross was not enough.

People go to hell because of sin. It is the just penalty that their sin deserves (Heb 2:2-3).

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />[qb]If we go to hell because of our sins, then Jesus' work on the Cross was not enough. We also must pay. They wages of death must be paid twice in that theology.

This is absolutely backwards. If Jesus paid for our sins on teh cross, and then we go to hell for our sins, then sins are piad for twice. If Jesus paid for even one sin for which man goes to hell, then Jesus death was not good enough.</font>[/QUOTE]I said it worse, I think, but I am pretty sure I was trying to say the same thing you said. Jesus paid in the 'coinage of death' for Sin, all sin. Therefore no man goes to hell because of sin.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />He says that it is those who do not believe who are damned.

Yes, and unbelief is a sin. If people do not go to hell for their sins, then they do not go to hell for unbelief. If Jesus paid for all sin, then unbelief was paid for.</font>[/QUOTE]Paid for, but not forgiven. It took me a while, actually, to realize there is a gulf between the two. If, for instance, my child or friend or whomever torches a building, I can pay for it, but whether or not I choose to forgive the person is another matter. (Yes, I know in Christ I forgive and am forgiven, but I am trying to point out the difference between payment for something and forgiveness for that thing.)

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />That is the only sin which cannot be forgiven, and yet even it was atoned for.

How do people go to hell for a sin that was atoned for?? YOu have just made God unjust, by saying that he requires a double payment for some sins.</font>[/QUOTE]See above. That is not double payment. On the cross, sin was paid for in full. Nevertheless, unbelief means a person is walking away from all that, and therefore refusing the gift. If you refuse the truth, you are preferring the lie. "Seek and ye shall find" is a two-edged statement.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />No, our sins do not send us to hell. All of us sin. We all belong in hell by that standard.

But those who come to Christ in faith and repentance are reckoned as righteous. They are no more sinners in the eyes of God. Paul says there is no condemnation for them.</font>[/QUOTE]no disagreement there! But not being reckoned as a sinner 'on the books' does not mean I do not sin, does it? I am not condemned because I believe in Christ, not because I no longer sin.

Rev 20 and 21 make is clear that man goes to hell for their sins.

Sins belie the condition of the heart. God judges the heart. We can see His righteous judgment by the evidence of the actions in the person's life.

 

[Daniel David]

Helen, unbelief is a sin. If you say that people don't go to hell for their sin, then they don't go to hell for unbelief. This is just getting more and more bizarre.

God will judge the heart and actions of men.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Helen:
Therefore no man goes to hell because of sin.

But this is not what Scripture says. Scripture says that man does go to hell for his sin.

Paid for, but not forgiven. It took me a while, actually, to realize there is a gulf between the two.

I don't think you can make this distinction stand up well from Scripture. I would be interested to see any scriptural support for it that you might use in talking about the eternal punishment/payment for sin.

But not being reckoned as a sinner 'on the books' does not mean I do not sin, does it? I am not condemned because I believe in Christ, not because I no longer sin.

But when God views you, he views you as "without sin" because he views you in Christ. When he views the unbeliever, he views them as "with sin" because they are not in Christ. And that is the difference. God does not view unbelievers as "righteous except for unbelief." He views them as sinners. By the same token, he does not view believers as "sinners who are in Christ," but rather as "absolutely righteous in Christ."

Sins belie the condition of the heart. God judges the heart. We can see His righteous judgment by the evidence of the actions in the person's life.

God judges more than the heart. He judges the actions. What comes out of a man is what is in his heart. Gal 5:19-21, 1 Cor 6:9-10, Rom 1:28-32, Rev 21:8, are just a few of the many passages that don't condemn unbelief but rather condemn sinful acts and attribute man's eternal punishment to those acts. I simply do not see any way around this ...

But more than that, neither do I see the need for a way around it. I am not sure what you are trying to protect here. It seems to me that we have some explicit statements of Scripture that you would like to nuance in order to maintain your position. What are you trying to protect? What do you think is compromised by our position?

 

[Helen]

OK, then DD and Pastor Larry, what are you going to do with John 3:16-21?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Believe it

... Belief is what places one in Christ, bringing solidarity with the Savior--the imputation of righteousness and the removal of sin.

But that does not mean that apart from unbelief one is not chargeable with his sin. He still is. The sin is there. It is not gone. Unbelief is simply another sin alongside the rest of them. The Bible does not describe man as a "pretty good person except for that pesky unbelief." (I say that without regard to one's belief on the nature of man.) Man is actively involved in sinful rejection of God and as Hebrews 2 say, those sins will bring a just penalty. They are not covered until belief and solidarity with Christ.

 

[Psalm145 3]

Therefore no man goes to hell because of sin.

Will people who have never heard the gospel all go to hell because they haven’t heard about Jesus Christ?

No one will go to hell because they haven’t heard of Jesus Christ. The heathen will go to hell for murder, rape, adultery, lust, theft, lying, etc. Sin is not failing to hear the gospel. Rather, "sin is the transgression of the Law" (1 John 3:4).

 

[Helen]

I agree with you that the law defines sin. But if you read Romans 2, you will find, first of all, that the law is written in the hearts of men.

Secondly, how did the people in Hebrews 11 get saved?

 

[Me2]

Mankind is in spiritual death in their physical bodies.

when God places his seed into the potential follower.

the law uncovers sin or unrighteousness or death in the persons life.

failure to act on this truth places the follower in a state of being "in death", yet not believing their present condition of lawlessness.

the holy spirit begins to teach the follower their condition. its consequences, and his alternative choice. the savior. Jesus Christ.

when it becomes time to try their choice they have or have not made by faith.

the test is pass or fail.

they are in death. they are either resurrected from death via the spirit of Christ or their failure to be resurrected from death and are placed in a reprobate state. spiritually "dead" and growing in a reverse direction towards knowledge of unrighteousness.

yet their false belief that they have the potential of salvation leads their imaginations to add to being saved by Christ with the addition of law. people in hell are in a religious state of law, yet failing to even follow the law righteously. they are in a state of lawlessness.

they create a false christ, a flase way of salvation and add to his works with their own

Hell is a state of lawlessness.

Hell is temporary and pre judgement.

all "sinners" within hell are taken out before the GWT judgment and placed in the Lake of fire.

hell is then judged and thrown into the lake of fire. hell is not eternal punishment. it is temporary.

making the purpose of hell and those who occupy its realm in a temporary state of lawlessness without Christs righteousness before the judgement throne.

to say this in another way. these are those chosen to be vessels of wrath.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Believe it

... Belief is what places one in Christ, bringing solidarity with the Savior--the imputation of righteousness and the removal of sin.

But that does not mean that apart from unbelief one is not chargeable with his sin. He still is. The sin is there. It is not gone. Unbelief is simply another sin alongside the rest of them. The Bible does not describe man as a "pretty good person except for that pesky unbelief." (I say that without regard to one's belief on the nature of man.) Man is actively involved in sinful rejection of God and as Hebrews 2 say, those sins will bring a just penalty. They are not covered until belief and solidarity with Christ.

For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him;
as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

Psalm 103:11-12

That takes care of the believer!

But now let's go back to Hebrews...

Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest, if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Hebrews 3:16-19

What is said over and over again in the Bible, in different ways (such as the one above), is that sin is the result of what is in a man's heart, and it is in his heart that a man truly believes or does not believe. Note that the writer of Hebrews mentions the sin of those who fell in the desert several times, but then concludes with "So we see that they wre not able to enter because of their unbelief"! The sins made God angry, but that is not why they could not enter the Promised land! It was because their sins were the outward sign of unrepentant, rebellious hearts.

It is that which sends a man to hell.

Smallpox was a deadly disease. Yet not everyone had the same number or severity of skin pistules. Nevertheless, those pistules were the evidence of the disease. The people did not die because of skin pistules. They died because of the disease which caused them.

Sins are the symptoms of the unbelieving, rebellious heart. Skin pistules can be treated. Jesus, being a much more perfect doctor than any we train here on earth, perfectly covered over our sins with Himself, paying the price of death for them. All of us. Nevertheless, if a person does not go to that Physician for healing of the inner disease of unbelief and rebelliousness, that person will die.

But if one does not believe, how can one go to Christ for healing?

That is why that unbelief, that rejection of the truth, is what sends a person to hell. The sins are only symptoms, just as Paul was indicating to the Hebrews.

Paul said it another way to Timothy in 1 Timothy 2:

[Obedience to authorities on earth] is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men -- the testimony given in its proper time.

Again, in Romans 1, we find that it is the suppression of the truth revealed to a man which will cause God to turn him over to gross sins.

You folks who are paying attention to the sins are concentrating on only the symptoms which indicate the disease which kills.

Think about it: if Jesus pardoned the prostitute for her sins because of her faith (belief), but adulterers are consigned to hell, what is it that made the difference? Belief. Belief in Christ. It was not the sin, but the heart, that made the difference. The sin was the same for her as for those who are hell-bound.

Paying attention to the sins is paying attention to what WE see. That is why it would seem that a person goes to hell for his sins. But the Bible disagrees. Although those who sin as a lifestyle will go to hell, it is not because of those sins. Jesus died for all those sins, too. His work was complete and finished. Those people will go to hell for rejecting the salvation offered them by God Himself.

Again, God judges the heart -- that is why Jesus pointed to the roots of adultery and murder and showed how they were results of a heart attitude. He was constantly trying to raise our eyes from they physical to the spiritual; from what we see to how God sees it.