Why do people go to Hell?

[GODzThunder]

That is a load of hot fresh bull stuff! I know men and women who are lost as a goose in a blindin hail storm and live a more holy life than some church members I know. According to your post it is simply a matter of right living.

Going to Hell is caused by one thing, being born into this world. It is where all men and women will go if they do not choose the gift that God has presented them. To go to hell one must simply live a life and die and death and be a person who does not choose Christ inbetween. [/QB]

We are not punished for being born, we are punished because we commit sin in our life, whether we are good or bad people. It is not a matter of living a holy or unholy life, it is a matter that when you commit a sin you separate yourself from God because you are in rebellion! I am not saying living a holy life will get you into heaven but committing even one sin (James 2:10 to back this up) will make you guilty, as if you committed EVERY sin in the book! And Romans 3:23 says that no man lives good enough to appease God! How you live is not important, it's WHO you live for! (which will determine how you live though :/ )

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Johnv, if it weren't for the Bible, I would agree with you. Opportunity has nothing to do with it.

IMO, sure it does. Jesus says in Rev 3:30, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." Jesus makes it a point to say "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door". There's an implication that some may be prevented, by outside circumstances, from hearing Jesus knock at the door. They may be infants who die, the mentally retarded, the informed, perhaps even geographic limitations. The implication in this verse is that anyone who is given the opportunity, and receives Jesus, is saved. Clearly a biblical possibility, if not a certainty.

 

[Daniel David]

John, people do not go to hell because they didn't receive some opportunity to do otherwise.

People are destined for hell from the beginning.

Christ steps in and saves many.

Revelation 3:20 isn't even about your little theory. Are you so reckless with all of Scripture?

 

[Johnv]

Without starting a whole subthread about accountability, we're certainly deserving of Hell, but destined? The question has been brought up before about infants who die at an early age and similar situations. If one sides towards the idea that they're saved, then my supposition stands. If, otoh, one believes that no one, not even an infant, enters heaven, without accepting Christ willfully, then your supposition stands.

 

[dr396]

John,

It seems that you hold to inclusivism, which is a dangerous and unBiblical view. The fate of those who have never heard is the same as those who hear and reject. We all deserve hell and none deserve an opportunity to "accept" Christ.

Your argument regarding the fate of infants is unfounded. Infants and the mentally handicapped are different from normal people sin. The former cannot understand sin from a mental capacity. The latter sin willfully. Huge difference there.

Also, there is a direct reason why infants can be of the elect. In Romans 9 Paul says,
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
9 For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived {twins} by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though {the twins} were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to {His} choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16 So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

God chose Jacob before he had done any good or bad. Why? So His purpose according to His own choice might stand. God can choose to save infants and the mentally handicapped by His own choosing. However, anyone whom He saves, He has decreed would display fruit. These people cannot display fruit because they are incapable. Those who are normal and grown can display fruit. Hence, they are in a complete different situation.

Therefore, the arguments are no mutually exclusive and cannot be taken as such.

D.R.

 

[Watchman]

Okay, let's look at this from another angle.
How many ways are there to be saved? I would hope that we all answer the same way in complete agreement: Only one way, grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross.
Now we have here the opposite question, really; that is: How is one lost? We know that grace through faith in the Lord Jesus is the ONLY way to be saved, but if we are lost because of sin, then the opposite is not true; that is, one is not lost from not being in Christ, but one is lost because of sin. We all have (and do) sin, why are we not all lost?
Let's look at Egypt. How many of the firstborn in Egypt would the angel from God destroyed? The answer, of course, is everyone of them in Egypt; Egyptians and Israelis alike. But the angel destroyed only the firstborn among the Egyptians and spared the firstborn among the Israelis.
Why?
Due to the Egyptians being sinners and the Israelis good, upright people? Do we kid ourselves? This was the generation that God was not well pleased with. These Israelis would continue to provoke God and put Him to the test over and over again.
No, the Israelis were spared because there was blood on the doorposts. The Egyptians died because there was no blood on the doorposts. God provided this way of escaping His judgement. BUT, if the Israelis had not availed themselve of this means of escaping God's judgement, they would have died just like the Egyptians.
IMHO, Helen has it exactly right.

 

[superdave]

JohnV

Does not nature itself bear witness to God?

I don't think that lack of opportunity can be extended to geographical limitations. The case can be made for mental incapacity to comprehend the offer of salvation, but not those who could comprehend it if presented with it. They are clearly at risk, that is the basic premise of missions. Otherwise, leave them in the jungle, for than they all would be saved!

Watchman,
The question begged by your post is this, If God is the Sovereign Lord of Creation, would he not know which Israelites would choose to put blood on the doorposts? And being sovereign, would he not also have as the creator of those people have chosen which Israelites those would be? This is not only a logical result of God's attributes, it is supported by scripture as well, at least as much as the concept of free will.

 

[Watchman]

superdave,
There can be only one answer to your question, certainly the Lord knew who would put the blood on their doorposts; that is not in question.
Here is the question(s) and this goes the center of the Cal-Arm debate:
Yes or No;
1.) Did God FORCE them to put the blood on the doorpost.
AND, those that did not,
2.) Did God FORCE (restrain) them from putting the blood on the doorpost?
These two questions are for us today, but it is not blood on the doorpost, but receiving the gift that God has provided through Christ Jesus.
To both questions I emphatically and without apology answer, NO!

 

[Daniel David]

Watchman, God doesn't force man to do anything. I am a calvinist. So, stop with the ignorant statements already.

 

[dr396]

Watchman,

The idea of receiving the gift is a bit misleading. The Bible (especially Jesus) doesn't make this such an easy process. Faith is what is necessary to unite our hearts with that of God. Hebrews is clear that without faith we cannot please God. Hence, we sin. That sin is what we will go to Hell for. But the faith is from God. We cannot believe apart from His work in our lives. Ephesians 2:8-9 says that faith is a gift from God. This gift is not one that must be received, but rather is the vehicle through which the gift of eternal life is received. And God must give us that faith in order to receive it. As for your insistance on God's force in our lives, I for one am glad that God changed my heart so that I would believe. I will never complain about that. Free will is not the highest ideal in God's mind. It is His glory. Hence, He does not have to (nor does He ever guarantee He will) give us free will. But that is another thread altogether. Still, God does not have to force anything once He has changed our hearts. If that is forcing in your mind, then let it be. But show me Scripture that claims God will not take away our will or that He has no right to.

D.R.

 

[Watchman]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Watchman, God doesn't force man to do anything. I am a calvinist. So, stop with the ignorant statements already.

Thank you Daniel David for that. Now I know the real meaning of the word, "ignorant." I will cross out that errant meaning in my dictionary and put in the real meaning: "Whatever Daniel David doesn't agree with."
Being ignorant DD, enlighten me on the "I" in Calvinism's T.U.L.I.P, that is, "Irresistible Grace." Educate the ignorant here.

 

[Daniel David]

Irresistable grace isn't about forcing anyone to do anything.

God makes the gospel so appealing, that men do not want to not believe.

If I hold up a donut that you find irresistable, that means you want it.

God makes the gospel so desirous for people. Got it?

I have NEVER heard a calvinist explain it as force. It is only the people who deny God's sovereignty that use those emotionally charged words.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by dr396:
It seems that you hold to inclusivism, which is a dangerous and unBiblical view.

Not at all. Those who reject Christ are destined to Hell.

The fate of those who have never heard is the same as those who hear and reject. We all deserve hell and none deserve an opportunity to "accept" Christ.

You're referring to accountability. That's a different topic from inclusivism.

 

[At His Feet]

This is what Jesus says about it:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:16-18

 

[Daniel David]

Johnv, people are destined to hell prior to rejecting Christ. The fact that they reject him only proves that they are on their way to hell.

At his feet, that is exactly right. Jesus said that people who do not believe in him are already condemned.

 

[dr396]

Though I am not posting anymore (if you're interested see the topic on hell as eternal torture for why), I did want to explain to John why he is an inclusivist.

John,
I am not sure you understand the difference between inclusivism and universalism. Inclusivism is defined as the view that Christ "includes" in the elect those who never put their faith in Him by name. This does not include those who knowingly or willingly reject Him, but does include all those who never hear and who may be a engaged in other religions. Universality can come in many different forms, but generally it is the view that all may be saved regardless of their religious view or their knowledge of Christ.

Inclusivism is represented by men like Clark Pinnock, John Sanders, and Greg Boyd. All of these men also hold to open theism, which is the view that God does not know the future since the future has not yet occurred. I don't think you want to be associated with these men. There is no Biblical evidence for inclusivism (this is why it was rejected by the early church despite some adherents). It is generally an emotional argument. Sanders, in fact, admits this in his book No Other Name: An Investigation into the Destiny of the Unevangelized . He says that his view did not come from Scripture but rather his view of God's grace. Regardless, he spent over 250 pages to explain why he believed inclusivism to be true. I would suggest reading this book along with John Piper's Let the Nations Be Glad! . Those two books are probably the most scholarly on each view. I think Piper's book overwhelmingly makes the better argument, but at least you will understand where you fall and why you believe what you believe about this (as there are many corollary doctrines that you may have to embrace and others you may have to reject in order to hold to inclusivism). I hope that you will eventually come to the view that makes the most sense of the evidence and teaching of the Bible.

D.R.

 

[Karen]

What you have described is one type of inclusivism, which does indeed have corollary doctrines. What I had not understood before this board is that Primitive Baptists are inclusivists, although they are also very Calvinistic and would not align with the people or ideas you outline above.

Karen

 

[john6:63]

Originally posted by dr396:
Based on Scripture and your interpretation of it, why do people go to Hell?

The question is why do people go to Hell? I’ve been avoiding this thread, b/c I get this all the time on other message boards and IMO, it’s a loaded question. I’ve read through a few of the posts here and it has turned into a predestination issue.

Any bible believing Christian can answer this simple question of why people go to Hell, people choose on their own freewill not to submit their lives to God and receive the free gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord who loved us and gave himself for us. IMO, the bible is clear on this question.

I’m not a Calvinist and I don’t believe God has predestined souls to Hell. This is a topic that I’ve prayed about many times and can only come to this logical conclusion. My mind can’t comprehend God’s omniscience. God is outside of our dimensions of space and time. God can see the beginning and end. My birth and my death and all the choices I’ve made in my life.

I was born by the direct result of the choices my parents made. God didn’t create me or anyone else for that matter to be predestined for Hell. Why would God predestine some to love Him and others to hate Him? It makes no sense. The love would be an empty love. I believe God wants us to love (agape) him on our own accord. See an example of this type of love in John 21:15-17.

But God being an omniscience God, sees our birth, sees the choices we make regarding His plan of salvation, either we reject it or submit our lives to it and unfortunately, many will reject it and spend an eternity in Hell.

In John 13:7, Jesus is basically telling Peter that there are something’s we simply can not answer or explain, while here on earth, but we will fully understand hereafter.

 

[Me2]

those in hell are there only temporarily. they serve a purpose in the next age. they are like the demons. they are to preach falsehoods and speaks lies of Gods character and promises to mankind.

some would call the next age the "millinium". where satan is locked up (temporarily) yet those in hell will spread their lies while the sons of God minister to the occupants within this time period.
hell is not somewheres one goes to. it a spiritual attitude and understanding. the antithesis of heaven.
one in which provides the knowledge of evil to mankind. and the vessels of wrath were predestined to temporariliy fulfill this role.

we know of the verses that death and hell are defeated and thrown into the lake of fire. as well as the verses in romans where we see in chapter 11 that the vessels of wrath are saved..

people go to hell because they are predestined to fulfill a role designed of God.
while some are picked to be vessels of mercy (sons of God)
and others become vessels of wrath.(antichrists and false prophets)

there are many dead standing before the GWT judgement. the sea contains dead. death contains the dead and hell contains the dead. (all non resurrected) hell is only one location yet it signifies that this group is different than the others. if one were to include all "sons of God" previously resurrected. added all together. this would be the sum total of all humans born.

the next scene we see is "all" are in the lake of fire. those dead from the sea, those dead from death, those dead from hell and the sons of God ministering to them all.
and then well, one can only imagine what the role of the vessels of wrath from "hell" are to be.
yep. pains in the rear end to all hearing the truth and capable of hearing by the sons of God.
this is what they were prepared for all along. to be resistance. they are keeping the knowledge of evil available until all possible reject it precepts.

why do people go to hell?. because they are prepared to fulfill a role designed of God in the next age.

It is temporary role for we all know the end of the story where jesus Christ judges and defeats all of his enemies.

Mar 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
Mar 5:8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, [thou] unclean spirit.
Mar 5:9 And he asked him, What [is] thy name? And he answered, saying, My name [is] Legion: for we are many.