Why does faith+works=not saved?

[Matt Black]

A question which puzzles me: why is it that some here assert that because Catholics believe that salvation is through faith and works (whatever those terms mean ) that that means they are not saved. Surely if they have saving faith, then that is enough? It matters not if they also believe in works; that does not negate or detract from that saving faith, otherwise that faith is not sufficient for salvation.

So, which is it: is faith alone sufficient for salvation - in which case then who cares from a soteriological POV whether some folks who have that faith also believe that has to be worked at; or does believing that some kind of works are necessary in addition to having that faith somehow fatally negate that faith, in which case faith is insufficient for salvation?

 

[webdog]

If you believe that faith + works is necessary for salvation, it is no longer faith but works only. If I believe I am saved by faith and a bunch of works, faith becomes just part of the works. It's like multiplication. Anything times 0 equals 0. Works is the "0".

 

[Matt Black]

But if an individual actually has that faith, then surely s/he is saved regardless?

 

[D28guy]

why is it that some here assert that because Catholics believe that salvation is through faith and works (whatever those terms mean ) that that means they are not saved.

Why?

Because Almighty God condemns that false gospel in the book of Galaciens.

He places his curse upon it.

btw, its only those Catholics who are trusting the Catholic gospel of faith plus works who arent saved. Just like an evagelical or pentecostal trusing in faith plus works isnt saved.

Any Catholic resting in faith alone is saved.

Gotta leave for work, be back later...

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

I see. So it isn'tenough to have that saving faith, you have to actually be 'resting' in it as well. Sounds like a work to me...

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
A question which puzzles me: why is it that some here assert that because Catholics believe that salvation is through faith and works (whatever those terms mean ) that that means they are not saved. Surely if they have saving faith, then that is enough? It matters not if they also believe in works; that does not negate or detract from that saving faith, otherwise that faith is not sufficient for salvation.

That would make entirely too much logical sense, now wouldn't it?

If faith alone = salvation then
faith + works should = salvation + works

But then we couldn't have Catholics be saved now could we?

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
A question which puzzles me: why is it that some here assert that because Catholics believe that salvation is through faith and works (whatever those terms mean ) that that means they are not saved. Surely if they have saving faith, then that is enough? It matters not if they also believe in works; that does not negate or detract from that saving faith, otherwise that faith is not sufficient for salvation.

So, which is it: is faith alone sufficient for salvation - in which case then who cares from a soteriological POV whether some folks who have that faith also believe that has to be worked at; or does believing that some kind of works are necessary in addition to having that faith somehow fatally negate that faith, in which case faith is insufficient for salvation?

I think what you'll find is much inconsistency among the answers.

What is faith?

Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days.

My question to all, Did the walls of Jericho fall by belief only or because of works?

If one were to answer belief only and no works were required, then they didn't have to march around the city for 7 days. Yet the walls didn't fall down until they were obedient.

If one answers by works only, then it was because of merit and God owed it to them. We could perform those same actions today and God would owe it to us also.

No, the walls fell by faith. God told them what to do, they did it (they didn't earn anything) and God caused the walls to come down. Now that is biblical faith.

Notice in Joshua 6:1-2, "Now Jericho was securely shut up because of the children of Israel; none went out, and none came in. And the LORD said to Joshua: “See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king, and the mighty men of valor.

God gave them a gift. They didn't earn that gift, else it wouldn't have been a gift. God gave them Jericho. Now was there any action required for them to receive that gift? Any action on their part is summed up in the simple statement "by faith".

Doing what God said is biblical faith.

 

[riverm]

Originally posted by mman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Matt Black:
A question which puzzles me: why is it that some here assert that because Catholics believe that salvation is through faith and works (whatever those terms mean ) that that means they are not saved. Surely if they have saving faith, then that is enough? It matters not if they also believe in works; that does not negate or detract from that saving faith, otherwise that faith is not sufficient for salvation.

So, which is it: is faith alone sufficient for salvation - in which case then who cares from a soteriological POV whether some folks who have that faith also believe that has to be worked at; or does believing that some kind of works are necessary in addition to having that faith somehow fatally negate that faith, in which case faith is insufficient for salvation?

I think what you'll find is much inconsistency among the answers.

What is faith?

Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days.

My question to all, Did the walls of Jericho fall by belief only or because of works?

If one were to answer belief only and no works were required, then they didn't have to march around the city for 7 days. Yet the walls didn't fall down until they were obedient.

If one answers by works only, then it was because of merit and God owed it to them. We could perform those same actions today and God would owe it to us also.

No, the walls fell by faith. God told them what to do, they did it (they didn't earn anything) and God caused the walls to come down. Now that is biblical faith.

Notice in Joshua 6:1-2, "Now Jericho was securely shut up because of the children of Israel; none went out, and none came in. And the LORD said to Joshua: “See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king, and the mighty men of valor.

God gave them a gift. They didn't earn that gift, else it wouldn't have been a gift. God gave them Jericho. Now was there any action required for them to receive that gift? Any action on their part is summed up in the simple statement "by faith".

Doing what God said is biblical faith. </font>[/QUOTE]Better yet, how about Noah? Noah I’m sure had faith that God would spare him and his family, but Noah still had to build an Ark…

 

[DeclareHim]

I've heard it said this way.... We must place our faith in Christ and in Him alone if I also believe that my works are going to get me to Heaven then I'm not trusting in Christ alone for my salvation.

 

[rbell]

If faith alone = salvation then
faith + works should = salvation + works

but if you take salvation squared minus the product of faith squared times works,

do you have the square root of a seventh-day adventist?

Now, after that bit of silliness, back to regular programming...

 

[Tazman]

John Chapter 8

12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

23 But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,[a] you will indeed die in your sins."

31 To the Jews who had believed him , Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

Did these Jew's not believe? No they believed that Jesus was who he said he was earlier in the passage, but if they "REALLY" wanted to be HIS disciples then would they ONLY need to "Just believe"? Nope. They already done that. They must "HOLD TO HIS TEACHINGS" to be set free from sin.

This is true Faith when you obey Him. Not "Works" with regard to the Mosaic law, but Faith according to Jesus.

 

[Jacob Dahlen]

faith without works is dead....

 

[JFox1]

While we can't earn our way to Heaven, God does expect us to do good works: For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is God's gift. It is not by works, so that no one may boast; for you are His handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God previously prepared for us so that we should live in them. Ephesians 2:8-10 Modern Language Bible aka New Berkeley Version.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

I think you can find this throughout Christianity in many different forms.

For example, you will find those will say you to believe plus you have to be baptized. Even if some who will say you have to be baptized a certain way and some in the name of Jesus only (rather than Father, Son & Holy Spirit).

Are these good folks not Christians too? After all, they are adding something to their faith.

 

[gb93433]

James talks about faith by itself is not a saving faith but rather an empty creedal faith. Faith which is a genuine saving faith is accompanied by actions which are the proof of their faith. Faith without works is dead. The Jews held that their faith was in the shema and that they were God's people. Tey did not have agenuine saving faith in Chirst but their faith was in the pages of the OT. James teachesd that a genuine saving faith is dynamic and written in the hearts of men. James teaches that a genuine saving faith is clearly demonstrated in works which accompany faith. Faith by itself is not faith. Faith in the NT is a verb not a static head knowledge. A genuine saving faith is dynamic. Works come as a result of a genuine saving faith in Jesus Christ. Faith does not come as a result of works.

 

[donnA]

When you add works to faith, you change the gospel, and are preaching ' a different gospel' that is to be rejected as untrue according to scripture. God told us how He saces, and thats how He does it, works are not part of it. It's His way or not at all.

 

[D28guy]

Matt Black,

I said...

"Because Almighty God condemns that false gospel in the book of Galaciens.

He places his curse upon it.

btw, its only those Catholics who are trusting the Catholic gospel of faith plus works who arent saved. Just like an evagelical or pentecostal trusing in faith plus works isnt saved.

Any Catholic resting in faith alone is saved.

And you said...

"I see. So it isn't enough to have that saving faith, you have to actually be 'resting' in it as well. Sounds like a work to me..."

Only someone mired in the confusion and contraditions of Rome could possibly find "doing works" in the word "resting". How desperate one must be to find some saving works to trust in.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with a Catholic recently. I brought up the publican in the Temple who, in contrast to the Pharisee who had lots of works he was trusting in, said...

"God, be merciful to me, a sinner"

Faith alone. And Christ clearly said he was justified.

"God be merciful to me a sinner" = Justified

This dear Catholic I was speaking with actually spent several minutes desperatly inventing all of the supposed *good works* that the publican was actually doing!

Same thing when I brought up the thief on the cross. He of course said...

"Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom".

Again...faith alone. And Christ accepted him on that basis and said he would be with Him in paradise that day.

"Lord, remember me" = Justified

And again, the incredible confusion just poured forth as this dear one tried to explain to me all the *good works* this man actually did!

Its just so very sad. Its almost beyond comprehension how said it is.

But the thing is...it must happen. The Catholic Church absolutly MUST go to whatever ridiculous and absurd lenghths are necesarry to refute Gods gospel of justification through faith alone, so as to continue the perpetuation of their gospel that will not save anyone.

Justification through faith plus works.

The very false gospel that Almighty God curses in Galaciens.

Its so much more than just the mangling and twisting of the "justified by works" passages in James. Its the mangling of Romans, Ephesians, Galaciens, Hebrews, the words of Christ, etc etc etc.

It so very very sad.

Mike

 

[mman]

Originally posted by donnA:
When you add works to faith, you change the gospel, and are preaching ' a different gospel' that is to be rejected as untrue according to scripture. God told us how He saces, and thats how He does it, works are not part of it. It's His way or not at all.

Actually, when you take works out of faith, you change it.

Faith includes works, else it is dead and useless according to James.

The bible says the walls of Jericho fell by faith. Use your definition of faith and explain that to me. -- Thanks

 

[mman]

Originally posted by FriendofSpurgeon:
I think you can find this throughout Christianity in many different forms.

For example, you will find those will say you to believe plus you have to be baptized. Even if some who will say you have to be baptized a certain way and some in the name of Jesus only (rather than Father, Son & Holy Spirit).

Are these good folks not Christians too? After all, they are adding something to their faith.

Actually baptism is water is by faith. Have you not read, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:26-27

I could make your same comparison to confession.
For example, you will find those will say you to believe plus you have to confess. Even if some who will say you confess in a certain way or say a sinners prayer.

Do you accuse anyone who says you must confess as adding something to their faith?

How about repentance? Is belief without repentance acceptable.

John 12:42, "Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue;".

I guess these guys were good to go because they added NOTHING to their belief.

Please use your definition of faith and explain how the walls of Jericho fell. The bible clearly says the walls fell by faith. Using the bible's definition, it is easy, but using your definition, it can't be done!

 

[Tazman]

Originally posted by donnA:
When you add works to faith, you change the gospel, and are preaching ' a different gospel' that is to be rejected as untrue according to scripture. God told us how He saces, and thats how He does it, works are not part of it. It's His way or not at all.

How is a faithful baptism adding to the gospel of Christ?

Does Christ ever teach you that baptism is a "Work"?