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Featured Why Proverbs 8:22 Cannot Refer to Jesus Christ. - For Non-Baptists

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by SavedByGrace, Sep 22, 2020.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old"

    This verse in its context, is about God-given "wisdom" that has been "personified" throught this Book.

    From the early Church some have sought to use this for the Lord Jesus Christ, and His eternal relationship with the Father. Even the great Church "father", Athanasius, used this verse in the Greek (LXX), in the sense of "appointing", to show that the Father, had made the Son the "Chief", the "Head", the "Sovereign", over all creation. On the other hand, the arch-heretic, Arius, the forerunner of cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses, used this same verse, in the same Greek version, to show that Jesus Christ is part of creation.

    The word translated in English versions like the KJV, "possessed", is from the Hebrew, "qânâh", which has the meaning of "creating", by the Act of God. The Greek Old Testament Version, known as the Septuigent (LXX), renders the Hebrew verb by the Greek, "ktízō", which, like the Hebrew, also means "create", also used "to found, build", etc. The ancient, Chaldaic, Arabic, and Syriac Versions of the OT use words that agree with the LXX; the Latin Vulgate, however, uses, "possedit", from where the KJV gets its reading, "possessed" from.

    Based on the evidence of the actual language used in the Hebrew OT, and other versions that are important, it is IMPOSSIBLE for this verse to ever be even remotely be used for the Lord Jesus Christ, in any way. Regardless of whether some of the best Christian theologians and apoligists, did use it in this sense. We must decide our understanding from what the Bible actually says, and not merely follow others because they have good arguments, or they might be "notable" leaders.
     
  2. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    First of all, I would like to say thank you for doing this as requested. There are a lot of topics in the "baptist-only" portions, to which I would love to enter into to study, but alas, cannot.

    I would like to say, that though such persons and their conclusions are interesting, even worthy of study at some point, I personally do not rely upon such others for my conclusion, but rather the scripture itself. So, with that stated, if we may look at the context together independent of such persons with their theological conclusions?

    Yes, but please notice, that Arius was, as also the WTS/JW, recognized as heretical, based upon the internal context of the passage itself, as well as the greater whole context (Bible).

    I am going to disagree in general here and come back, as this is really the main crux of your position.

    There really is no such thing as "the Septuagint (LXX, LXXII???)", but never-the-less, what we do have in that area, can we use merely as secondary and not primary? I would rather utilize the Hebrew text, and the English of the King James Bible to define our words, yet I may refer to an 'LXX' in secondary fashion for additional evidence once the primary evidence is given.

    We shall look at that in a bit.

    Actually the KJB gets its definition, internally, not from Latin. Allow me to demonstrate in a bit.

    It would only be "IMPOSSIBLE" (sic) given the information you provided, but there is a plethora of further material which would show it is not only possible to be speaking about the Son of God as "wisdom", and defined as "possessed", but quite the only understanding in context, as I will be attempting to show in this thread.

    Though it will not be used as primary evidence, the facts in that area as you have given, do show, that there are far more in agreement that Proverbs 8:22-32 are about the Son of the Father, as "wisdom", and Uncreated Creator, than do not. That is something to take into consideration, though not to be weighed as 'ad majorem' or 'ad populum'.

    I fully agree. Thus can we stick to the Bible at the first, and then look at secondary considerations after the main points are considered internally to the Hebrew and English text?

    I also whole-heartedly agree here. Never is it safe to merely follow the leader, unless that Leader is Jesus Christ, and He by the word of God.
     
  3. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Considering this word (H7069), in the KJB, we see that it never is translated as "creating":

    H7069
    קנה
    qânâh


    Total KJB Occurrences: 86

    buy, 24
    Gen_47:19, Exo_21:2, Lev_22:11, Lev_25:15, Lev_25:44-45 (2), Deu_28:68, Rth_4:4-5 (2), Rth_4:8, 2Sa_24:21, 2Sa_24:24, 2Ki_12:12, 2Ki_22:6, 1Ch_21:24, 2Ch_34:11, Pro_23:23, Jer_32:7-8 (4), Jer_32:25, Jer_32:44, Amo_8:6​

    bought, 21
    Gen_33:19, Gen_39:1, Gen_47:20, Gen_47:22-23 (2), Gen_49:30, Gen_50:13, Lev_25:28, Lev_25:30, Lev_25:50, Lev_27:24, Deu_32:6, Jos_24:32, Rth_4:9, 2Sa_12:3, 2Sa_24:24, 1Ki_16:24, Neh_5:16, Isa_43:24, Jer_32:9, Jer_32:43​

    get, 9
    Pro_4:5 (2), Pro_4:7 (2), Pro_17:16 (3), Jer_19:1 (2)​

    purchased, 5
    Gen_25:10, Exo_15:16, Rth_4:10, Psa_74:2, Psa_78:54​

    buyer, 3
    Pro_20:14, Isa_24:2, Eze_7:12​

    getteth, 3
    Pro_15:32, Pro_18:15, Pro_19:8​

    got, 3
    Ecc_2:7, Jer_13:2, Jer_13:4​

    possessed, 3

    Psa_139:13, Pro_8:22, Jer_32:15​

    buyest, 2
    Lev_25:14, Rth_4:5​

    possessor, 2

    Gen_14:19, Gen_14:22​

    attain, 1
    Pro_1:5​

    cattle, 1
    Zec_13:5 (2)​

    getting, 1
    Pro_4:7​

    gotten, 1

    Gen_4:1​

    jealousy, 1
    Eze_8:3​

    keep, 1
    Zec_13:5​

    owner, 1
    Isa_1:3​

    possessors, 1
    Zec_11:5​

    recover, 1
    Isa_11:11​

    redeemed, 1
    Neh_5:8​

    verily, 1
    1Ch_21:24
    The KJB uses other words when desiring to say "creating". For instance:

    Isa_43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.​

    1. created (H1254)

    2. formed (H3335)

    3. made (H6213)
    There is also a fundamental flaw in thinking in suggesting that God created "wisdom". God never needed to create "wisdom", as "wisdom" is always (from everlasting to everlasting) His (being part of His own character; see Psalms 104:24, 136:5; Proverbs 3:19, 8:14; Job 12:9,13,16, 28:12,30; Jeremiah 10:12, 51:15; Daniel 2:20; Revelation 7:12, &c). If we were to suggest that God created "wisdom" (in Proverbs 8:22), by what "wisdom" was "wisdom" created? It is a self-refuting paradox.

    I do have more, quite a bit.
     
  4. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    So, here is how I shall present my material. In orderly fashion, and feel free to comment at any point, or ask for clarifying, or make disagreeing statements followed by evidence.

    I have written an entire study on this Proverbs 8. Here is the ToC (Table of Contents) to it. Please refer to this section, to easily find where the material you need to consider is at.

    The Proverbs 8 KJB contextually

    The texts of Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB and the key words

    "possessed [me]" - Proverbs 8:22 KJB, H7069

    Subsection, “Wisdom” - “She”

    Subsection, Whom are the scriptures [KJB] about?

    "set up" - Proverbs 8:23 KJB, H5258


    "brought forth" - Proverbs 8:24,25 KJB, H2342

    "him, as one brought up [with him]" - Proverbs 8:30 KJB, H525

    The word “'âmôn” Proverbs 8:30 KJB; H525, comes from H539

    "from everlasting" - Proverbs 8:23, H4480, H5769

    "or ever" - Proverbs 8:23, H4480, H6924

    The real truthful Adventist materials on Proverbs 8:22-31


    Just in case you missed it
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    from what you have written, you support the reading "possessed", and ascribe Proverbs 8:22 to Jesus Christ? your arguments thus far do not prove this!
     
  6. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    True. I haven't made the argument yet, merely stated my position, and set up a bit of detail to show that your position is not that tenable, but haven't fleshed it out yet. I find that if I post too much at once, people complain.
     
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I look forward to you showing this from facts!
     
  8. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    The Proverbs 8 KJB contextually:

    Proverbs 8:1 KJB - Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

    Proverbs 8:2 KJB - She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

    Proverbs 8:3 KJB - She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

    Proverbs 8:4 KJB - Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

    Proverbs 8:5 KJB - O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

    Proverbs 8:6 KJB - Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

    Proverbs 8:7 KJB - For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

    Proverbs 8:8 KJB - All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

    Proverbs 8:9 KJB - They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

    Proverbs 8:10 KJB - Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

    Proverbs 8:11 KJB - For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

    Proverbs 8:12 KJB - I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

    Proverbs 8:13 KJB - The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

    Proverbs 8:14 KJB - Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

    Proverbs 8:15 KJB - By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

    Proverbs 8:16 KJB - By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

    Proverbs 8:17 KJB - I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

    Proverbs 8:18 KJB - Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

    Proverbs 8:19 KJB - My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

    Proverbs 8:20 KJB - I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

    Proverbs 8:21 KJB - That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

    Proverbs 8:22 KJB - The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

    Proverbs 8:23 KJB - I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

    Proverbs 8:24 KJB - When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

    Proverbs 8:25 KJB - Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

    Proverbs 8:26 KJB - While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

    Proverbs 8:27 KJB - When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

    Proverbs 8:28 KJB - When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

    Proverbs 8:29 KJB - When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

    Proverbs 8:30 KJB - Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

    Proverbs 8:31 KJB - Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

    Proverbs 8:32 KJB - Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

    Proverbs 8:33 KJB - Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

    Proverbs 8:34 KJB - Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

    Proverbs 8:35 KJB - For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

    Proverbs 8:36 KJB - But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.​
     
  9. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    The texts of Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB and the key words:

    The texts of Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB are used by those teaching “two beings” and “three personalities”, that the Son of God came into existence in eternity past at some unknown and incalculable [by human means of] time.

    Here are those texts again:

    Proverbs 8:22 KJB - The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

    Proverbs 8:23 KJB - I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

    Proverbs 8:24 KJB - When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

    Proverbs 8:25 KJB - Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

    Proverbs 8:26 KJB - While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

    Proverbs 8:27 KJB - When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

    Proverbs 8:28 KJB - When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

    Proverbs 8:29 KJB - When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

    Proverbs 8:30 KJB - Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

    Proverbs 8:31 KJB - Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.​

    Here are the primary words that are pointed to by those advocating the errors [such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Arians, others and those teaching the “two beings” and “three personalities”], but they all misunderstand them, as they grieve the person/being of the Holy Ghost/Spirit:

    Pro 8:22 יהוה קנני ראשׁית דרכו קדם מפעליו מאז׃

    Pro 8:22 יהוהH3068 קנניH7069 ראשׁיתH7225 דרכוH1870 קדםH6924 מפעליוH4659 מאז׃H227​

    "ני", transliterated "niy", "the suffix "niy" identifies the object of the verb as "me"" - Hebrew Words in the Greek New Testament | AHRC

    "possessed [me]" - Proverbs 8:22 KJB, H7069

    קנה ; qânâh

    Total KJB Occurrences: 86

    buy, 24

    Genesis 47:19; Exodus 21:2; Leviticus 22:11, 25:15,44-45 (2); Deuteronomy 28:68; Ruth 4:4-5 (2),8; 2 Samuel 24:21,24; 2 Kings 12:12, 22:6; 1 Chronicles 21:24; 2 Chronicles 34:11; Proverbs 23:23; Jeremiah 32:7-8 (4),25,44; Amos 8:6​

    bought, 21

    Genesis 33:19, 39:1, 47:20,22-23 (2), 49:30, 50:13; Leviticus 25:28,30,50, 27:24; Deuteronomy 32:6; Joshua 24:32; Ruth 4:9; 2 Samuel 12:3, 24:24; 1 Kings 16:24; Nehemiah 5:16; Isaiah 43:24; Jeremiah 32:9,43​

    get, 9

    Proverbs 4:5 (2),7 (2), 17:16 (3); Jeremiah 19:1 (2)​

    purchased, 5

    Genesis 25:10; Exodus 15:16; Ruth 4:10; Psalms 74:2, 78:54​

    buyer, 3

    Proverbs 20:14; Isaiah 24:2; Ezekiel 7:12​

    getteth, 3

    Proverbs 15:32, 18:15, 19:8​

    got, 3

    Ecclesiastes 2:7; Jeremiah 13:2,4​

    possessed, 3

    Psalms 139:13; Proverbs 8:22; Jeremiah 32:15​

    buyest, 2

    Leviticus 25:14; Ruth 4:5​

    possessor, 2

    Genesis 14:19,22​

    attain, 1

    Proverbs 1:5​

    cattle, 1

    Zechariah 13:5 (2)​

    getting, 1

    Proverbs 4:7​

    gotten, 1

    Genesis 4:1​

    jealousy, 1

    Ezekiel 8:3​

    keep, 1

    Zechariah 13:5​

    owner, 1

    Isaiah 1:3​

    possessors, 1

    Zechariah 11:5​

    recover, 1

    Isaiah 11:11​

    redeemed, 1

    Nehemiah 5:8​

    verily, 1

    1 Chronicles 21:24​

    The subject, “me” (niy), of that which is “possessed” of “the LORD” is “wisdom” [Proverbs 8:1,11,12,14 KJB].

    Proverbs 3:19 KJB - The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
    This perfectly matches the NT texts:

    1Co_1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

    Jas_3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

    1Co_1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:​

    The text of Proverbs 3:19 KJB, is in perfect parallel with Proverbs 8:22,30 KJB, in that the Father “by Jesus” made all things:

    1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    2 Corinthians 5:8 KJB - And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

    Ephesians 3:9 KJB - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God.

    John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    John 1:10 KJB - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    Hebrews 1:1 KJB - God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Colossians 1:17 KJB - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Colossians 1:19 KJB - For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;​
     
  10. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “buy”, “bought”, “get”, “purchased”, “buyer”, “getteth”, “got”, “buyest”, “attain”, “cattle” [property], “getting” [obtain, possess], “gotten” [obtained, received [a birth, Cain from Eve]], “jealousy”, “recover” [buy/purchase back at cost to oneself], “redeemed” [buy/purchase back at cost to oneself], “verily [buy]” [truly purchase at dear sacrificial cost], since the words “in the beginning of his way” [Proverbs 8:22 KJB], “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning” [Proverbs 8:23 KJB], “I was there” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB], “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB], except it be connected to the redemption plan as it is in Christ Jesus, or to the effect that the Father exchanged words with the Son, and the Son believed the Father, or an interchange, exchange of ideas [like as merchandising], the Father sharing His will with the Son, and the Son rejoicing in that will.

    The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “possessed me” carries with it the meanings of “possessor”, “possessors”, which is to intimately know through and through [such as the word “possession” is understood, such that the Holy Ghost/Spirit should possess the whole heart, lest devils occupy/possess it], or to completely occupy or dwell in fully [such as to “possess” the land/earth, and the heart is the like unto the soil], to be LORD or Master of [such as a Father unto a Son], to own [to belong to someone's person], to have all or the whole entirety of something such as the whole mind/heart/spirit, for instance:

    Psalms 139:13 KJB - For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

    Joshua 21:43 KJB - And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

    Jeremiah 32:23 - And they came in, and possessed it; but they obeyed not thy voice, neither walked in thy law; they have done nothing of all that thou commandedst them to do: therefore thou hast caused all this evil to come upon them:

    John 14:10 KJB - Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    John 14:11 KJB - Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.​

    The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “possessed me” carries with it the meanings of “keep” [raise cattle, like as to raise a sheep, like as a Lamb, the Lamb of God in the Father's care], “owner” [one who has a purchased possession, such as a cow or Lamb]. The image then is of a tender compassionate Father caring for His Son, holding the Son in His arms, close to His bosom [as Jesus had done with John], cherishing the relationship as Father to Son:

    Genesis 22:8 KJB - And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

    John 1:29 KJB - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    John 1:36 KJB - And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

    1 Peter 1:19 KJB - But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    2 Samuel 12:3 KJB - But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.​
     
  11. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    [Side note: Subsection, “Wisdom” - “She”:

    In Proverbs 8 KJB, “wisdom”, is given in feminine terminology, “her voice” [vs. 1], “She” [vs. 2,3], “I dwell with prudence” [vs. 12] and before in the previous Proverbs:

    Proverbs 8:1 KJB - Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? Psalms 8:1

    Proverbs 8:2 KJB - She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

    Proverbs 8:32 KJB - She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.​

    “She” dwells with others:

    Proverbs 8:12 KJB - I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.​

    Looking back into Proverbs Chapters 1, 2, 3, 4 and 7 we find that “wisdom” is again called “she”, “her” and also called “My sister”, and even “understanding” is called “kinswoman” and “instruction” called “her”, and in other passages like Psalms 85:10-13 KJB we find that “Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed [each other].” - Psalms 85:10 KJB, etc:

    Proverbs 1:20 KJB - Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:

    Proverbs 2:4 KJB - If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as [for] hid treasures;​

    [see vs 2, “...incline thine ear unto wisdom...”]

    Proverbs 3:15 KJB - She [is] more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.​

    [see vs 13, “...findeth wisdom...”]

    Proverbs 3:16 KJB - Length of days [is] in her right hand; [and] in her left hand riches and honour.

    Proverbs 3:17 KJB - Her ways [are] ways of pleasantness, and all her paths [are] peace.

    Proverbs 3:18 KJB - She [is] a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy [is every one] that retaineth her.

    Proverbs 4:6 KJB - Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.​

    [see vs 5, “...get wisdom...” and vs 7 “wisdom...get wisdom...”]

    Proverbs 4:8 KJB - Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her.

    Proverbs 4:9 KJB - She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.

    Proverbs 7:4 KJB - Say unto wisdom, Thou [art] my sister; and call understanding [thy] kinswoman:​

    According to the text of Proverbs 8 KJB itself, God was the one who was creating the Heavens and the Earth, and by the Scriptures themselves, we know that Christ Jesus Himself created all things by command/instruction of the Father [Isaiah 45:12; Psalms 95:5; Job 9:8; Jeremiah 10:12; John 1:3; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:1-3 KJB], for it was by this “wisdom” that the Father is said to create, and this “wisdom” was eternally with the Father, for the “wisdom” [the Son] of God was eternally with Him [the Father]:

    Wisdom is as Truth and Love [all of which Jesus is], that is to say, eternal. Such cannot be created, nor come into existence at some point in time. Such is from everlasting to everlasting, unchanging, immutable.

    Job 28:12 KJB - But where shall wisdom be found? and where [is] the place of understanding?

    Job 28:30 KJB - Whence then cometh wisdom? and where [is] the place of understanding?​

    The Father eternally possessed this “wisdom”:

    Daniel 2:20 KJB - Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:

    Revelation 7:12 KJB - Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.​

    Let us look past Proverbs 8 KJB and continue into Proverbs 9 KJB, looking at “wisdom” who hath “maidens”:

    Proverbs 9:1 KJB - Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

    Proverbs 9:2 KJB - She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.

    Proverbs 9:3 KJB - She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,

    Proverbs 9:4 KJB - Whoso [is] simple, let him turn in hither: [as for] him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,​

    Jesus Christ Himself, speaks on “wisdom” and “her children”:

    Matthew 11:19 KJB - The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

    Luke 7:35 KJB - But wisdom is justified of all her children.​

    The Father is the “of whom” are all things, and it is the Son “by whom” are all things:

    Proverbs 3:19 KJB - The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

    Psalms 104:24 KJB - O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.

    Psalms 136:5 KJB - To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

    Jeremiah 10:12 KJB - He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

    Jeremiah 51:15 KJB - He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.

    Job 12:9 KJB - Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?​

    [combined with...]

    Job 12:13 KJB - With him [is] wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding.

    [and yet still...]

    Job 12:16 KJB - With him [is] strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver [are] his.​

    This does not make the Son of God literally a woman, but illustrates the submissive character of relationship of Son to that of the Father, wherein the Son always honours the Father's will [Exodus 20:12; Malachi 1:6 KJB], and thus is paralleled in 2 Samuel 12:3 KJB with the words, “was unto him as a daughter”, for Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father is “wisdom” (and mankind was made in the "image" and "likeness" of "God", both "male" and "female", which showed the relationship of Father to Son, as united by the Holy Ghost in perfect relationship in eternity):

    1 Corinthians 1:24 KJB - But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:30 KJB - But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    Luke 11:49 KJB - Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:​

    For Luke 11:49 KJB, see also Jeremiah 7:25, 25:4, 26:5, 29:19, 35:15, 44:4 KJB:

    Proverbs 3:19 KJB - The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

    Psalms 104:24 KJB - O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.

    Psalms 136:5 KJB - To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

    Isaiah 45:12 KJB - I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

    Jeremiah 10:12 KJB - He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

    Jeremiah 51:15 KJB - He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.

    Job 12:9 KJB - Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?

    Job 12:12 KJB - With the ancient [is] wisdom; and in length of days understanding.

    Job 12:13 KJB - With him [is] wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding.

    Job 12:16 KJB - With him [is] strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver [are] his.

    Colossians 2:1 KJB - For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and [for] them at Laodicea, and [for] as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

    Colossians 2:2 KJB - That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

    Colossians 2:3 KJB - In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.]​
     
  12. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Subsection, Whom are the scriptures [KJB] about?

    John 5:39 KJB - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    Luke 24:27 KJB - And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    Psalms 40:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

    Hebrews 10:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.​

    So, when the Scripture says:

    Proverbs 3:13 KJB - Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

    Jeremiah 29:11 KJB - For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

    Jeremiah 29:12 KJB - Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.

    Jeremiah 29:13 KJB - And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

    Jeremiah 29:14 KJB - And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.​

    King Solomon had Christ Jesus in Him:

    1 Kings 3:28 KJB - And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment.​

    Other texts, on the Everlasting Gospel, which is Christ Jesus, God manifest in the flesh, and in us:

    1 Corinthians 1:21 KJB - For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    1 Corinthians 2:7 KJB - But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

    Ephesians 3:10 KJB - To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    1 Timothy 3:16 KJB - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Colossians 1:27 KJB - To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

    Revelation 10:7 KJB - But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.​

    As it is written:

    “... The central theme of the Bible, the theme about which every other in the whole book clusters, is the redemption plan, the restoration in the human soul of the image of God. From the first intimation of hope in the sentence pronounced in Eden to that last glorious promise of the Revelation, “They shall see His face; and His name shall be in their foreheads” (Revelation 22:4), the burden of every book and every passage of the Bible is the unfolding of this wondrous theme,—man’s uplifting,—the power of God, “which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 15:57. ...” - Education, p. 125-126 - Education, Page 125 -- Ellen G. White Writings
     
  13. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    What does it mean “to know Wisdom”:

    Proverbs 1:2 KJB - To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;

    John 17:3 KJB - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Proverbs 1:3 KJB - To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;

    Luke 20:1 KJB - And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,

    Psalms 86:11 KJB - Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.

    John 8:2 KJB - And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

    Isaiah 28:9 KJB - Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

    Isaiah 28:6 KJB - For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.

    Micah 4:2 KJB - And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

    John 6:45 KJB - It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    1 Thessalonians 4:9 KJB - But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

    Psalm 34:8 KJB - O taste and see that the LORD [is] good: blessed [is] the man [that] trusteth in him.

    Psalm 34:9 KJB - O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for [there is] no want to them that fear him.

    Psalm 34:10 KJB - The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good [thing].

    Psalm 34:11 KJB - Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

    Psalm 34:12 KJB - What man [is he that] desireth life, [and] loveth [many] days, that he may see good?

    Psalm 34:13 KJB - Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.

    Psalm 34:14 KJB - Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.

    Psalm 34:15 KJB - The eyes of the LORD [are] upon the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their cry.​
     
  14. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    What is the Fear of the LORD?

    Job 28:28 KJB - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

    Acts 10:35 KJB - But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    Revelation 14:7 KJB - Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    Revelation 15:4 KJB - Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    Revelation 19:5 KJB - And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

    Job 13:11 KJB - Shall not his excellency make you afraid? and his dread fall upon you?

    Psalms 25:12 KJB - What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.

    Psalms 111:10 KJB - The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

    Psalms 112:1 KJB - Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments.

    Psalms 128:1 KJB - [[A Song of degrees.]] Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD; that walketh in his ways.

    Proverbs 1:7 KJB - The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

    Proverbs 8:13 KJB - The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

    Proverbs 14:2 KJB - He that walketh in his uprightness feareth the LORD: but he that is perverse in his ways despiseth him.

    Proverbs 14:27 KJB - The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

    Proverbs 15:33 KJB - The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.

    Ecclesiastes 8:12 KJB - Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him:

    Ecclesiastes 8:13 KJB - But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.

    Ecclesiastes 12:13 KJB - Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

    Isaiah 50:10 KJB -Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God.

    Jeremiah 5:24 KJB - Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest.

    Jeremiah 32:39 KJB - And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

    Jeremiah 32:40 KJB - And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

    Malachi 1:6 KJB - A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

    Malachi 2:5 KJB - My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

    Malachi 4:2 KJB - But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

    Luke 1:50 KJB - And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

    Luke 23:40 KJB - But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

    2 Corinthians 7:1 KJB - Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    2 Corinthians 7:11 KJB - For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

    2 Corinthians 7:15 KJB - And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.​
     
  15. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    What is the Fear of the LORD? (continued)

    Hebrews 11:7 KJB - By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

    Hebrews 12:28 KJB - Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

    Luke 12:5 KJB - But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

    Deuteronomy 4:10 KJB - Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.

    Deuteronomy 5:29 KJB - O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

    Deuteronomy 6:2 KJB - That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

    Deuteronomy 6:13 KJB - Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

    Deuteronomy 6:24 KJB - And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

    Deuteronomy 8:6 KJB - Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.

    Deuteronomy 10:12 KJB - And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

    Deuteronomy 17:19 KJB - And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:

    Deuteronomy 28:58 KJB - If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;

    Job 1:8 KJB - And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

    Job 1:9 KJB - Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

    Job 2:3 KJB - And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

    Job 28:28 KJB - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

    Psalms 19:9 KJB - The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

    Psalms 25:19 KJB - The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

    Psalms 33:8 KJB - Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.

    Psalms 33:18 KJB - Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;

    Psalms 34:11 KJB - Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

    Psalms 60:4 KJB - Thou hast given a banner to them that fear thee, that it may be displayed because of the truth. Selah.

    Psalms 85:9 KJB - Surely his salvation is nigh them that fear him; that glory may dwell in our land.

    Psalms 119:63 KJB - I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.

    Psalms 147:11 KJB - The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy.

    Proverbs 24:21 KJB - My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:​
     
    #15 Alofa Atu, Sep 22, 2020
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  16. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    What does it mean to “despise Wisdom”:

    Proverbs 1:7 KJB - The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

    Psalms 14:1 KJB - [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    Psalms 53:1 KJB - [[To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

    Proverbs 30:9 KJB - Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.

    Isaiah 53:3 KJB - He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    Psalms 22:6 KJB - But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

    Proverbs 1:20 KJB - They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

    Isaiah 5:24 KJB - Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.​

    The Precious Jewelry of God:

    Proverbs 1:8 KJB - My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:

    Proverbs 1:9 KJB - For they [shall be] an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.

    Proverbs 4:9 KJB - She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.

    Proverbs 25:12 KJB - As an earring of gold, and an ornament of fine gold, so is a wise reprover upon an obedient ear.

    1 Peter 3:4 KJB - But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

    Isaiah 49:18 KJB - Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.

    Ezekiel 7:20 KJB - As for the beauty of his ornament, he set it in majesty: but they made the images of their abominations and of their detestable things therein: therefore have I set it far from them.​

    Seek the LORD/Wisdom while He may be found:

    Proverbs 1:28 KJB - Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

    Proverbs 8:17 KJB - I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

    Isaiah 45:19 KJB - I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

    Isaiah 51:1 KJB - Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.

    Isaiah 55:6 KJB - Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

    Isaiah 58:2 KJB - Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.

    Jeremiah 29:13 KJB - And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

    Amos 5:4 KJB - For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:

    Malachi 3:1 KJB - Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

    John 7:34 KJB - Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

    John 7:36 KJB - What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?

    John 8:21 KJB - Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

    John 12:35 KJB - Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

    John 13:33 KJB - Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

    John 18:8 KJB - Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:​

    There are some that sought to kill Him who is Wisdom, they despised Knowledge and Instruction, hateful of Prudence:

    John 8:37 KJB - I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

    John 8:40 KJB - But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.​

    Wisdom in the Heart, Christ in you the Hope of Glory:

    Proverbs 2:9 KJB - When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;

    Colossians 1:27 KJB - To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

    Happy is the man that finds Christ:

    Proverbs 3:13 KJB - Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.​

    As it is written:

    “... Those who think of the result of hastening or hindering the gospel think of it in relation to themselves and to the world. Few think of its relation to God. Few give thought to the suffering that sin has caused our Creator. All heaven suffered in Christ’s agony; but that suffering did not begin or end with His manifestation in humanity. The cross is a revelation to our dull senses of the pain that, from its very inception, sin has brought to the heart of God. Every departure from the right, every deed of cruelty, every failure of humanity to reach His ideal, brings grief to Him. When there came upon Israel the calamities that were the sure result of separation from God,—subjugation by their enemies, cruelty, and death,—it is said that “His soul was grieved for the misery of Israel.” “In all their affliction He was afflicted: ... and He bare them, and carried them all the days of old.” Judges 10:16; Isaiah 63:9. ...” - Education, p. 263.1 - Education, Page 263 -- Ellen G. White Writings

    “... The officers who were sent to take Jesus reported that never man spake like this man. But the reason of this was that never man lived like this man; for if he had not so lived, he could not so have spoken. His words bore with them a convincing power, because they came from a heart pure and holy, full of love and sympathy, beneficence and truth. There is eloquence beyond that of words, in the quiet, consistent life of a pure, true Christian. We shall have temptations as long as we are in this world, but instead of injuring us, they will only turn to our advantage, if resisted. The bounds are placed where Satan cannot pass. He may prepare the furnace, but instead of working injury, it will only consume the dross, and bring forth the gold of the character, purer than before the trial. ...” - Gospel Workers 1892, Page 244 - Gospel Workers 1892, Page 244 -- Ellen G. White Writings
     
  17. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    "set up" - Proverbs 8:23 KJB, H5258

    נסך ; nâsak

    Total KJB Occurrences: 26

    poured, 10

    Genesis 35:14; Numbers 28:7; 2 Samuel 23:16; 2 Kings 16:13; 1 Chronicles 11:18; Isaiah 29:10; Jeremiah 19:13, 32:29, 44:19; Ezekiel 20:28​

    pour, 6

    Exodus 30:9; Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17-19 (3),25​

    cover, 4

    Exodus 25:29, 37:16; Numbers 4:7; Isaiah 30:1​

    offer, 2

    Hosea 9:4 (2)​

    set, 2

    Psalms 2:6, Pro 8:23​

    melteth, 1

    Isaiah 40:19​

    molten, 1

    Isaiah 44:10​

    The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “molten” [to form], “melteth”, “offer” [as a sacrifice, or to pour out as in offering], “cover” [to place over], “pour” [out as in offering], “poured” [a drink offering, in anointing an object, etc.], except it be in the meaning of 'poured out upon', as in “anointed” [of the Holy Ghost/Spirit] from everlasting, as the Son of God is indeed, the “Christ” even before He is born [Matthew 2:4; Luke 2:11,26 KJB] and/or in the meaning of being the one chosen [and chose] to be “offer[ed]” in sacrifice from before all things were made; a life to be “poured out” as a gift for the redemption, for sin should it arise.

    The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “set up” carries with it the meanings of “set”, but also dealing with the “anointed” heir and King:

    Psalms 2:2 KJB - The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

    Psalms 2:6 KJB - Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

    Psalms 2:7 KJB - I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

    Psalms 2:8 KJB - Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

    Psalms 2:12 KJB - Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.​
     
  18. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    "brought forth" - Proverbs 8:24,25 KJB, H2342

    חיל / חוּל ; chûl / chı̂yl

    Total KJB Occurrences: 68

    pain, 6

    Isaiah 13:8, 26:17-18 (2); Jeremiah 30:23; Ezekiel 30:16; Micah 4:10​

    formed, 5

    Deuteronomy 32:18; Job 26:5,13; Psalms 90:2; Proverbs 26:10​

    forth, 4

    Proverbs 8:24-25 (2); Isaiah 45:10, 66:8​

    brought, 3

    Proverbs 8:24-25 (2); Isaiah 45:10​

    pained, 3

    Joel 2:4-6 (3)​

    calve, 2

    Job 39:1; Psalms 29:9​

    fall, 2

    Jeremiah 23:19, 30:23​

    fear, 2

    1 Chronicles 16:30; Psalms 96:9​

    grieved, 2

    Esther 4:4; Jeremiah 5:3​

    grievous, 2

    Psalms 10:5; Jeremiah 23:19​

    shaketh, 2

    Psalms 29:8 (2)​

    stayed, 2

    Genesis 8:10; Lamentations 4:6​

    travail, 2

    Isaiah 23:4, 54:1​

    travailed, 2

    Isaiah 66:7-8 (2)​

    tremble, 2

    Psalms 114:7; Jeremiah 5:22​

    trembled, 2

    Psalms 97:4; Habakkuk 3:10​

    wounded, 2

    1 Chronicles 10:3 (2)​

    abide, 1

    Hosea 11:6​

    afraid, 1

    Psalms 77:16​

    anguish, 1

    Deuteronomy 2:25​

    bare, 1

    Isaiah 51:2​

    bring, 1

    Isaiah 66:8​

    dance, 1

    Judges 21:21​

    danced, 1

    Judges 21:23​

    driveth, 1

    Proverbs 25:23 (2)​

    great, 1

    Ezekiel 30:16​

    grievously, 1

    Jeremiah 23:19​

    hope, 1

    Lamentations 3:26​

    look, 1

    Job 20:21​

    made, 1

    Job 15:7​

    patiently, 1

    Psalms 37:7 (2)​

    rest, 1

    2 Samuel 3:29​

    shapen, 1

    Psalms 51:5​

    sorrow, 1

    Jeremiah 51:29​

    sorrowful, 1

    Zechariah 9:5​

    tarried, 1

    Judges 3:25​

    travaileth, 1

    Job 15:20​

    trust, 1

    Job 35:14​

    wait, 1

    Psalms 37:7​

    waited, 1

    Micah 1:12​
     
  19. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “pain”, “painful”, “pained”, “sorrow”, “grievous”, “grievously”, “grieved”, “fall [grievously]”, “great [pain]”, “anguish”, “afraid [troubled]”, “fear”, “wounded”, “tremble”, “trembled”, “shaketh”, “driveth”, “wounded” since the words “rejoicing always before him” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB], “Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.” [Proverbs 8:31 KJB] are associated, which would go with the meanings of “dance” and “danced”. The only way the other meanings may be included within the contextual definition, is in reference to the Son's Godly awesome reverential wonder at the beautiful and marvelous will of His eternal Father, and in the plan of redemption which included the cross. For instance, see “The fear of the LORD” - Proverbs 8:13 KJB.

    The context of Proverbs 8 KJB also eliminates the meanings of 'giving birth' to, as meaning in coming into existence/world at some point in time, such as “travail”, “travailed”, “driveth” [as to push forward], “shapen”, “made”, “bring forth”, “brought [forth]”, “bare”, “calve”, “formed” since the words “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way” [Proverbs 8:22 KJB], “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning” [Proverbs 8:23 KJB], “I was there” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB] and “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him.” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB]. The context declares that the Son had ever been with the Father from eternity, ever “with” Him. The only way the other meanings may be included within the contextual definition, is in reference to the Son's being born/made of a woman, taking upon Himself the flesh nature of mankind, and entering into the world through the miracle of “the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh” [1 Timothy 3:16 KJB].

    The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “brought forth” carries with it the meanings of “stayed” [waited patiently or attended to another, as in 'waiting upon', or ever at the ready, ever at the right hand to obey, called upon to attend], “abide”, “hope” [quietly wait upon/for], “look” [towards, up to], “patiently”, “rest”, “tarried”, “trust”, “wait”, “waited”, since the words “When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB], “When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:” [Proverbs 8:28 KJB], “When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:” [Proverbs 8:29 KJB], “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB; see also Psalms 40:8 KJB]. Thus when the eternal Father called for the eternal Son, the Son who ever waited upon the will of His Father, said, 'Yes, Father, here am I.' and thus the Son was brought to accomplish the Father's decrees:

    Genesis 1:1 KJB - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    Genesis 1:2 KJB - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    Genesis 1:3 KJB - And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    Genesis 1:6 KJB - And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

    Genesis 1:7 KJB - And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

    Genesis 1:26 KJB - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    Genesis 1:27 KJB - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God.

    John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    John 1:10 KJB - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    1 John 1:1 KJB - That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

    1 John 1:2 KJB - (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    1 John 1:3 KJB - That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    Hebrews 1:1 KJB - God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Colossians 1:17 KJB - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Colossians 1:19 KJB - For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

    1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.​
     
  20. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    "him, as one brought up [with him]" - Proverbs 8:30 KJB, H525

    אָמוֹן ; 'âmôn

    him, as one brought up [with him], 1

    Proverbs 8:30​

    The Son was eternally the “fellow” [associate, companion, neighbour, etc] of the Father, for notice that it does not say that the Son became the fellow at any time past, but simply says, “the man, my fellow”:

    Zechariah 13:7 KJB - Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.​

    The Son is the eternal “help meet”, the “right hand of” [thus ever at His right hand] of the Father. The Son is the ever “faithful” one, the ever “obedient” one to His eternal Father, ever honouring His eternal Father's requests and commands, always “delight[ing]” [Proverbs 8:30; Psalms 40:8 KJB] in doing His will. Ever “rejoicing” in the will of His eternal Father. The Son eternally and ever “believes” the word of His eternal Father, and there is no doubt in the Son about the Father. When the eternal Father says, “My Son.” The Son says, “Here am I, my Father.” Most precious. Think of this eternal relationship. Pray right now. Doesn't your own hurt burn within you to be as the Son? See below:

    Psalms 40:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

    Psalms 40:8 KJB - I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

    Hebrews 10:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

    Hebrews 10:8 KJB - Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

    Hebrews 10:9 KJB - Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.​
     
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