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Featured Why Proverbs 8:22 Cannot Refer to Jesus Christ.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Sep 21, 2020.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old"

    This verse in its context, is about God-given "wisdom" that has been "personified" throught this Book.

    From the early Church some have sought to use this for the Lord Jesus Christ, and His eternal relationship with the Father. Even the great Church "father", Athanasius, used this verse in the Greek (LXX), in the sense of "appointing", to show that the Father, had made the Son the "Chief", the "Head", the "Sovereign", over all creation. On the other hand, the arch-heretic, Arius, the forerunner of cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses, used this same verse, in the same Greek version, to show that Jesus Christ is part of creation.

    The word translated in English versions like the KJV, "possessed", is from the Hebrew, "qânâh", which has the meaning of "creating", by the Act of God. The Greek Old Testament Version, known as the Septuigent (LXX), renders the Hebrew verb by the Greek, "ktízō", which, like the Hebrew, also means "create", also used "to found, build", etc. The ancient, Chaldaic, Arabic, and Syriac Versions of the OT use words that agree with the LXX; the Latin Vulgate, however, uses, "possedit", from where the KJV gets its reading, "possessed" from.

    Based on the evidence of the actual language used in the Hebrew OT, and other versions that are important, it is IMPOSSIBLE for this verse to ever be even remotely be used for the Lord Jesus Christ, in any way. Regardless of whether some of the best Christian theologians and apoligists, did use it in this sense. We must decide our understanding from what the Bible actually says, and not merely follow others because they have good arguments, or they might be "notable" leaders.
     
  2. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    JWs have long believed Wisdom personified was Jesus, and use these passages to prove Jesus was a god (little g) who was brought into existence.

    In their phony bible translation (New World Translation) they take out all the female pronouns.
     
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  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Cannot be Jesus, as that wisdom was created by God!
     
  4. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Not to mention the feminine pronouns. It's a no-brainer.
     
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  5. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I, personally, had never heard of this extraordinary blaspheme, until the last day, or so.

    This is truely an abominable herecy, to be abanded and dismissed.

    Genuine Chritianity would call for this OP to be ditched.

    "Why Proverbs 8:22 Cannot Refer to Jesus Christ"
    calls into question, The Gospel, The Pre-Existence of Jesus, as The Second Person in The Triune Godhead, as God THE SON, Who is and Has ALWAYS Been, GOD THE SON.

    This is a straight-forward, pure, bonafide, in-stage denial of The Eternal Son of God.

    And it is attempted by 'Garbage in = Garbage' out misinterpretation and childlike assumption.


    Ver. 22 . The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way , etc.]

    Not created me”, as the Targum and the Septuagint version;
    which version Arius following gave birth to his pernicious doctrine;

    "...who from hence concluded Christ is a creature, and was the first creature that God made, not of the same but of a like nature with himself, in some moment or period of Eternity; and by whom He made all others: the Word, or Wisdom of God is never said to be created;


    ".. and if as such He was created,
    God must have been without His Wisdom before he was created;

    "...besides, Christ, as the Word and Wisdom of God,
    is the Creator of all things, and not created, ( John 1:1-3);

    "...but this "possession" is not in right of creation,
    as the word is sometimes used, ( Genesis 4:1 Deuteronomy 32:6);

    "...it might be more truly rendered, “the Lord begat me”,
    "brought me up" as the word is translated by the Septuagint in ( Zechariah 13:5);

    Zechariah 13:5 καὶ ἐρεῖ· οὐκ εἰμὶ προφήτης ἐγώ, διότι ἄνθρωπος ἐργαζόμενος τὴν γῆν ἐγώ εἰμι, ὅτι ἄνθρωπος ἐγέννησέ με ἐκ νεότητός μου.

    Zechariah 13:5 And one shall say, I am not a prophet, for I am a tiller of the ground, for a man brought me up thus from my youth.



    Brenton Septuagint Translation "brought me up"

    5 And one hath said, `I am not a prophet,
    A man, a tiller of ground I am,
    For ground is my possession from my youth.'
    YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATION.

    The Lord Possessed Me
    in the Beginning of His Way
    denotes the Lord’s
    Having, Possessing, and Enjoying

    His Word and Wisdom as His Own Proper Son;

    which possession of Him is expressed by His Being with Him and in Him,
    and in His Bosom, and as One Brought Forth and Brought Up by Him;

    as He was “in the beginning of his way” of creation,
    when He went forth in His Wisdom and Power, and Created all things;

    then He did Possess His Son, and Made Use of Him,
    for by Him He Made the Worlds:
    and “in the beginning of his way” of Grace,
    which was before His Way of Creation;

    He Began with Him when He first went out in Acts of Grace towards His people;

    His First Thoughts, Purposes, and Decrees concerning their happiness, were in Him;

    the Choice of their persons was Made in Him;

    God was in Him Contriving the Scheme of their Peace,
    Reconciliation, and Salvation; the Covenant of Grace was Made with Him,
    and all Fulness of Grace was Treasured Up in Him:

    the words may be rendered,
    “the Lord possessed me, the beginning of his way”
    f225 ; that is,
    who am the beginning, as he is;

    the Beginning of the Creation of God, the First Cause, the Efficient of it, both Old and New; see ( Colossians 1:18 Revelation 3:14).

    So Aben Ezra, who compares with this ( Job 40:19).

    This shows the real and actual existence of Christ from Eternity, His Relation to Jehovah His Father, His Nearness to Him, Equality with Him, and Distinction from Him: it is added, for further illustration and confirmation’s sake, before His Works of Old ;

    the Creation of the Heavens and the Earth;

    a detail of which there is in the following verses."

    ...
    I can not tell you the expression of people, in fellowship, afterward, when I preached on, "Always".

    They were in raptured by "The Sweet Spirit" they said, which consumed the Message.

    "The Bible does not say, 'how long The Father and The Son Enjoyed Communion and Delight with One Another....(?)"

    Yes, it does.

    "Always". Proverbs 8:30
     
    #5 Alan Gross, Sep 21, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    is this some sort of joke? your reasoning is complete nonsense! and UNBIBLICAL!!!
     
  7. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    I have to say, it is one of the weirdest responses I've ever read on a forum. Head-scratcher.
     
  8. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    All I can say is you've been terribly deceived. This passage has nothing to do with the sonship issue. There are many who agree with you on that doctrine that don't rely in this specific passage. I'm on the fence, but I learned long ago this passage is not a reference to Christ. And to take it another step cry heresy is bizarre. You've invested way too much emotion into the interpretation of one passage.
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    Proverbs 8:22, and every reference to "wisdom" in this Book, has NOTHING to do with Jesus Christ. Nothing weird about my response above!
     
  10. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    T
    Turn that around, where it can do some good.
     
  11. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    It's not one Passage, at all. All of Proverbs, up to Proverbs 8, RELATES 'Wisdom' to 'Jesus'. Look at them. Read them.
     
  12. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Are you "suuuuuuuure"?

    Based on not understanding the word, "possessed" to mean anything, EXCEPT WHAT YOU PLACE IT IN YOUR 'INSPIRATION', TO MEAN?????

    That Hebrew word is used 84 times and "created" has precious, little or nothing to do with it.

    Bizarre and weird are light to through the Deity of The Son of God away, as if it's a joke.

    The FACT that one could not reconsider a barely tethered, obscure, strange usage of one word to HAVE TO BE DECREED to mean something CONTRARY TO THE ENTIRE BOOK of PROVERBS and THE BIBLE is NOT INTELLIGENT.

    GIVING NO CONSIDERATION and SETTING GUESSWORK into CONCRETE is not going to win any prizes with God.
     
  13. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    I agree. I was referring to the response you were quoting.
     
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    this is unbiblical speculation!
     
  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    As I have already said in the OP, the Hebrew word in 8:22 translated in versions like the KJV as "possessed", is "qânâh", The leading Hebrew lexicon by Brown, Driver and Briggs, has this to say of its use in this text, "a. of God as originating, creating...Pro. 8.22). the other leading Hebrew lexicon is that by Gesenius, which says, "to found, create...Pro.8.22. For the LXX use here of "κτίζω", J H Thayers Greek lexicon says, "In the Bible, to create: of God creating the world, man, etc". And the Greek lexicon by Arndt and Gingrich, "create, God's creative activity, Creator"

    This is the evidence that really counts, what the words used actually mean, and not what they are said to mean for theological purposes!
     
    #15 SavedByGrace, Sep 21, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
  16. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Case closed. These passages are not referring to Jesus, but the creation of Jesus.
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    which is the highest BLASPHEMY!
     
  18. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Well, poor hermeneutics, to be sure, which helps blasphemous interpretations.
     
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  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    '.........But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.'
    'But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God - and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.'
    '.......The knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.'
    ['Whom' here is singular. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ]

    All the O.T. Scriptures testify of Christ (Luke 24:27; John 1:45; 5:39). We should expect to find Him in more than one place in Proverbs.

    Finally, I think you will find that qânâh (Strongs 7069) has a much larger semantic range than the O.P. suggests. It is used, for example, in Proverbs 4:5, 7. 'Get wisdom!' Clearly it does not mean 'create wisdom' there. In the KJV it is translated variously as 'attain,' ' buy,' 'get,' 'possess,' 'purchase, 'recover' and 'redeem.' Never as 'create.'

    I do not want to set myself up as a Hebrew expert, which I am absolutely not; but nor, I suspect, is the writer of the O.P. Perhaps someone who has studied the language would care to comment?
     
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  20. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Not 'what the word MIGHT "MEAN", at times;
    what the word means IN CONTEXT.

    You are not possessed with the admiring, entertained, taking ownership, nurturing, common contextual sense that God Has, in this verse.

    "Created" is as much an impossible contextual translation,
    as "a God" is, in John 1:1.

    It is Satanic Jehovee Tomfoolery.

    And Apostasy, to take their route.
     
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