Why the hatred for Calvanism........

[Grasshopper]

In my study I have come to believe that Calvanism is the correct theology. However, I do not feel I can be dogmatic about it since I belive 2 people can come to different conclusions on the subject using scripture. It might be a cop-out, but I believe when and if it is ever revealed to us in Heaven both views are correct. It is just that are intellect is incapable of understanding this doctrine completely now.

Does it really matter if both side witness and pray for the lost? I do have a problem with Hyper-Calvanism, but that is not what is represented on this board. Does believing in pre-destination change ones actions or deeds that he would otherwise do if he were not a Calvanist? Or vice versa. Each side pretend for a moment that you believe in the opposite view. Does it really change your behavior? I would be burdened for the salvation of my children and friends no less. I would still believe it takes a work of God to stir a lost man's heart.

Fairness? That was my biggest hurdle. But what is fair? Being a deaf child the age of ten living in an isolated jungle in South America in the year 1123 AD. You think that child ever heard the name Jesus? Do you think any of her ancestors heard the name Jesus? Sure, they had nature, but we have the church. Would you rather have a tree as your witness or the Bible? Is that fair? I love the discussion and who knows one day God may reveal I am wrong, and thats OK with me, but why the hatred?

 

[KenH]

There are those who oppose Calvinism whom I sometimes feel like asking as the apostle Paul did the Galatians,

(Gal 4:16 NKJV) Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
There are those who oppose Calvinism whom I sometimes feel like asking as the apostle Paul did the Galatians,

(Gal 4:16 NKJV) Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

It's not hatred for Calvinism; some of us are just tired of these kinds of pompous and idiotic statements above.

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Grasshopper:
In my study I have come to believe that Calvanism is the correct theology. However, I do not feel I can be dogmatic about it since I belive 2 people can come to different conclusions on the subject using scripture. It might be a cop-out, but I believe when and if it is ever revealed to us in Heaven both views are correct. It is just that are intellect is incapable of understanding this doctrine completely now.

Does it really matter if both side witness and pray for the lost? I do have a problem with Hyper-Calvanism, but that is not what is represented on this board. Does believing in pre-destination change ones actions or deeds that he would otherwise do if he were not a Calvanist? Or vice versa. Each side pretend for a moment that you believe in the opposite view. Does it really change your behavior? I would be burdened for the salvation of my children and friends no less. I would still believe it takes a work of God to stir a lost man's heart.

Fairness? That was my biggest hurdle. But what is fair? Being a deaf child the age of ten living in an isolated jungle in South America in the year 1123 AD. You think that child ever heard the name Jesus? Do you think any of her ancestors heard the name Jesus? Sure, they had nature, but we have the church. Would you rather have a tree as your witness or the Bible? Is that fair? I love the discussion and who knows one day God may reveal I am wrong, and thats OK with me, but why the hatred?

Grasshopper:
I feel like master Poe.
Anyway, grasshopper. It is always nice to be nice. But even that has it's limitations. If both election and freewill are the will of God, then we have a contradiction. There is no schism within the God head.

If you want to be nice to everybody, have we misunderstood the sun god, how about budda, or allah.

Can we also throw in Scientology, Rev. Moon's boys, Jehovah's wittnesses, how about David Koresh, Jim Jones, The Mormons, Heavens Gate, or even The Moon God religion.

How far can we stretch the word of God before it is not the word of God. God is a nice fella, does he for the sake of peace say, all these religions are ok.

The debate between freewill and salvational predestination go on because one is right and one is wrong. One is Godly and one is blasphemy.

If you intend to ride both horses, you have to muzzel them together. Ever try to yoke a horse and a water buffalo together. Don't.

It's ok to love the brother, yet oppose his doctrine.

You ask about the name of Jesus, the name does not save, Jesus does. Who is this jesus of yours, can he not save out of the jungles of Borneo. Need one be born in america to be saved. Does one need to have Christian parents in order to be saved. The bible say's that God is "Mighty to Save". Those that hear the word are judged by the word. Perhaps those that do not hear the word are judged by Christ. He's really into that heart stuff you know...

No man can come unto the father except by me, Christ said that. Just means that you will not get to the father unless he allows you to get past him. Others may give that passage more meaning, but just stick to what the passage says.

The Gospel prepares men to be evangelicals, Christ saves. If i were you, i would find out what "ugla boogla" means. You don't want to get to heaven and not be able to speak the language do you. I know, you were sure that it would be english... Maybe, maybe not????????

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
There are those who oppose Calvinism whom I sometimes feel like asking as the apostle Paul did the Galatians,

(Gal 4:16 NKJV) Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

Nope, perhaps it is because you have not yet learned the truth. Just wanted to help you to keep all applicable options open.

 

[tyndale1946]

Grasshopper said

It might be a cop-out, but I believe when and if it is ever revealed to us in Heaven both views are correct.

Calvanistic by Salvation
Arminian in Discipleship... Brother Glen

 

[Grasshopper]

Who is this jesus of yours, can he not save out of the jungles of Borneo

That paragraph had do do with fairness, but since you didn't want to deal with that I'll say this. It seems to me that God will save the elect no matter where they are. That's why I believe many people in this kind of circumstance are saved. Maybe we agree on this. If you equate Calvanism with Islam and Mormonism, then I guess it's not worth discussing this subject with you. Poor John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, John Gill, etc.... I wonder if they know they are heretics and on their way to hell.

[ October 22, 2002, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: Grasshopper ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

If you were Jesus and died for the sins of the whole world, [I John 2:2] how would you feel about those who teach an erring view of His atonement? ' . . . and not for OURS only, but also for the sins of the whole world.' Could He really be speaking about our earth. The short answer is Yes.

Should not every Christian hate every false thing? But, we are not God and do not have the capacity to love and hate as He can do.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Biblical by Salvation
Scriptural by Discipleship

See the difference?

 

[Rev. G]

If you want to be nice to everybody, have we misunderstood the sun god, how about budda, or allah.

Can we also throw in Scientology, Rev. Moon's boys, Jehovah's wittnesses, how about David Koresh, Jim Jones, The Mormons, Heavens Gate, or even The Moon God religion. How far can we stretch the word of God before it is not the word of God. God is a nice fella, does he for the sake of peace say, all these religions are ok. The debate between freewill and salvational predestination go on because one is right and one is wrong. One is Godly and one is blasphemy.

Chappie:
Believe it or not, this cuts me to the heart. To place me, and other brothers here, in the camp of cults, idol worship and blasphemy. My desire is to serve the living and the true God, and Him alone - and to see others serve Him as well. I would rather die than to be guilty of blasphemy.

Rev. G

 

[Ray Berrian]

Grasshopper,

I too wonder about men like R.C. Sproul who teach such violent err against the perfection of the Cross and the alleged, limited view of atonement. I understand the error of Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons; I don't know how Dr. Sproul can teach error even when he knows he at times 'hits the wall' and falls to the ground with no Biblical explanation. Those who teach theology will be judged severely by the Lord for such illogical ideas.

Do you think Dr. Sproul is really saved; I take it by your post that you feel he has a special seat in Hell. Am I right about this?

 

[Ray Berrian]

I John 4:9 gives an indication as to who are really saved people. The people of God are those who believe that Jesus is God and trust in Him only for personal salvation.

We were taught in seminary that Seventh Day Adventist's were a cult. I have talked with a couple of them and they believe in salvation through Christ. Who knows how many in this denomination are saved? I guess only God. I know their eschotology is messed up but then so is the theology of those who don't believe that Jesus will literally sit in Jerusalem in the future in His earthly theocracy. [Zechariah chapter 14] especially verses nine and sixteen and seventeen.

All one has to do is to receive Christ with confession of all sins and trust in Him for everlasting life. Trusting in some mysterious winds of an autocratic election will not have any saving value at the Great White Throne Judgment. [Revelation 20:11]

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

The 97th Psalm commands, "Ye that love the Lord hate evil."

The Bible teaches that Christ tasted death for every man. For that I love Him. Calvinism says He didn't. Therefore Calvinism is evil. Therefore I hate Calvinism, because I love the Lord and Calvinism is evil.

I also contend that the Lord hates Calvinism, as He hates every doctrine of man.

Lest anyone accuse me of being unkind or uncharitable with this post, remember that the question was asked why Calvinism is so hated and I am simply giving an honest answer.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Helen]

A few things --

I have met R.C., talked with him, interpreted for the deaf for him, and worked with his organization (Ligonier Ministries) in the past. I do believe this man is saved. I personally have no trouble accepting him as a brother in Christ, although I strongly oppose Calvinism/Reformed theology. I have heard him pray and I have heard him speak on the majesty and holiness of God with what struck me as sincere devotion to God. If I am wrong, at least I have erred on the side of not causing his name to be impugned.

Now, about Calvinism. I have seen the fruits of it and the Lord told us if we see the fruits we can tell about the tree.

-- I watched a deaf mother sign to her son that he must not be saved because he was so rebellious, and the then proceeded to try to separate herself emotionally from him. She was following up as logically as she could on what she had learned at an R.C. Sproul conference. It broke my heart. I am totally grateful now that this family has rejected Reformed theology and that the family is close again.

-- I have witnessed over and over again the "us" and "the rest of them" mentality with Calvinist apologists. And yet Jesus said we should love our neighbors (whether saved or unsaved) as we do ourselves. This means really caring about them and acting in accordance with that care.

-- I have seen here on this board and in person as well the incredible (to me) callousness of telling someone who asks that everyone but the "us" is going to hell, no hope possible, no chance offered. It's just tough and that's how God works and too bad for "you". That is not the way I see God act toward men in the Bible, not the way I see Jesus act, not the way any of the apostles acted. That attitude is foreign to Christianity as I know it.

-- I have seen Calvinism produce bitter divisions among born again Christians with the insistence that anyone who did not agree with their point of view obviously did not know the Bible and clearly was not thinking clearly.

Or, to put it another way, I have not seen any good fruits from Calvinism. I have seen it, instead, produce hopelessness, anger, bitterness, pain, frustration, and tears. I have seen it result in arrogance, insulting speech, and callousness of heart.

And so I will oppose it in whatever way I can, wherever I can. The Bible does not support it unless verses are taken out of context and the meaning of some words twisted. I will take my stand on the clear and simple meaning of the Bible in context with itself.

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Rev. G:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> If you want to be nice to everybody, have we misunderstood the sun god, how about budda, or allah.

Can we also throw in Scientology, Rev. Moon's boys, Jehovah's wittnesses, how about David Koresh, Jim Jones, The Mormons, Heavens Gate, or even The Moon God religion. How far can we stretch the word of God before it is not the word of God. God is a nice fella, does he for the sake of peace say, all these religions are ok. The debate between freewill and salvational predestination go on because one is right and one is wrong. One is Godly and one is blasphemy.

Chappie:
Believe it or not, this cuts me to the heart. To place me, and other brothers here, in the camp of cults, idol worship and blasphemy. My desire is to serve the living and the true God, and Him alone - and to see others serve Him as well. I would rather die than to be guilty of blasphemy.

Rev. G

</font>[/QUOTE]Rev G:
You have my apology, it certaintly was not my intent. I did not say which one was blasphemous so that the person could make up their own mind. Realistically, i guess a person would not have to look too far to surmise which one i feel is right and which is wrong. My intent was to say that we owe just as much respect to truth as we do to being nice.

Rev. G., I just try to speak the truth as i see it, if god could not see what's in my heart, think that i would try to fake it. If when i get to heaven, I would rather stand before God in ignorance, rather than add lying and deception to my error, now that's if i am wrong.

You are my brother, and i gain joy in knowing that, but Calvinism feel scripturally so unnatural to me. To me, the pocture that it paints is absolutely nothing like the loving God revealed in scripture.

Be patient with me, as i've been on this battlefield a long time.

Sorry that i offended....

You are a fine person, I sense it in your posts. Please accept my apology untill I can learn to express my feelings about election without being offending.

 

[ForumChaplain]

Helen:
I thank god for you. Your post is wonderful, it so expresses my feelings about Calvinism. Hopefully they (the calvinist) will read it for what it is worth. Prayerfully they will set aside their anger just long enough to realize that at a minimum, this is how they present themselves to the christian community.

Maybe they are not as bad as that, perhaps they just need some lessons in public relations. Yet they do, some exceptions are noted; but they do present themselves as a very arrogant group.

Tonight on the board I responded to a post that went something like this..

(Not exact quote) Those that are not of the elect hate God, they have rejected God. They deserve to go to hell, they deserve God's justice. They do not deserve mercy.

The actual post is here. Click on bold letters immediately left of here, here and scroll down to the 4th post by timothy. Bottom of his post.

And then they wonder why those that oppose them fight them so hard.

Bless you for your post. I pray that God will use it mightly...

[ October 23, 2002, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Chappie:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Grasshopper:

Who is this jesus of yours, can he not save out of the jungles of Borneo.

That paragraph had do do with fairness, but since you didn't want to deal with that I'll say this. It seems to me that God will save the elect no matter where they are. That's why I believe many people in this kind of circumstance are saved. Maybe we agree on this. If you equate Calvanism with Islam and Mormonism, then I guess it's not worth discussing this subject with you. Poor John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, John Gill, etc.... I wonder if they know they are heretics and on their way to hell.

Perhaps I am not worth discussing this with. Just be sure that you do not throw me away before God does, lest you find yourself in opposition to the allmighty...

If disagreeing with you renders me unworthy, may i wear the words, "unworthy" in big red letters across my chest.

In your post you said that you had calvinist leanings, i was unaware that you are suffering from full blown calvinatistsism...

May god bless...[/qb]</font>[/QUOTE]

[ October 23, 2002, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[KenH]

Helen,

What you wrote against Calvinism, I am sorry to say, can also be said about Arminianism, Pelagianism, Modalism, and probably any
other -ism in the church.

[ October 23, 2002, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Helen:
And so I will oppose it in whatever way I can, wherever I can

I am sorry to see that you wish to oppose Biblical truth, Helen.

 

[PastorGreg]

Helen has seen no good fruit from Calvinism, others hate it. It's been a long time since I have seen so many public declarations of [being uninformed] in one place. Our Baptist heritage is Calvinistic. Ever hear of Spurgeon? How about John Bunyan? William Carey and the modern missionary movement? I guess none of those constitute good fruit, but all are rooted in Calvinism. Carey believed that God hadn't just chosen Englishmen, and since no one can be saved without hearing of Jesus Christ from the Word of God, we have the responsibility to get the gospel to the whole world because that is the means God has chosen to save the elect. Of course, if people can be saved by looking at trees and stars, Carey, and every other missionary, have wasted their time and lives. Oh, by the way, Christ did too if we can be saved by simply seeing God in nature.

____________________

Moderator's note: Please avoid the use of words that may be misinterpreted to reflect a personal attack. Let's raise the level of conversation.

[ October 23, 2002, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]