Why would God say:  "I Have Hated Esau..."?

Yes, sorry I have never met another like you who makes such a mockery out of the character of God. There may be others out there like you, but I doubt it. Prove me wrong, where are they?

"You expose yourself with everyword you write. It is polite to call Calvinists Calvin followers?"

I am not a follower of men johnp, you contradict yourself above by acting insulted for being a follower of calvin yet you admitt to being a follower of others. I just follow my bible, not man nor heritage.

"Is it bad doctrine to teach sola scripture and the Sovereignty of God?"

Johnp at the risk of sounding rude, I don't see what the above statement (too me and my understanding of scriptures)have to do with what you are putting out there. CAll me what you want John but I have never called anyone on thier salvation here or any other board. I have never called anyone a heritic. But what you are promoting is so far from scripture, and the Holy God I serve, that you are a waste of time to me.I said that I would that you hate me not because I hate you but because the God I serve, which I believe to be the God of the bible, offends you so much that you want nothing to do with me. I do not want to assonate you either. You are here for a purpose which God has determind.
If I was told by God to do something and my parents told me to do something else my priority would be to God. However that would not mean I hate my parents. Your view is very odd. I can love God but love my parents less. I can love my parents more but love my friends less. I can love my friends more but love my enemies less. Why would a God who is love tell us to love our enemies when He does not? According to you. Yes your doctrine is very screwy too me.

"Your teaching is unscriptural and leads many to Hell why should I hate you?"

This statement I just have to chuckle at. Here is a calvinist who believes God controls man like a puppet even to the pt of makeing him sin. And yet I can teach so that men go to hell! Johnp I cannot tharwt the will of God. You think too highly of me. And you contradict, again, you own theology.

AS to your last part that I am "trying to kid you into believing God love Esau.." I am not doing any such. Scriptures proves itself and life backs it up. If you are not telling your wife and kids that you hate them then again you are not living your theology. You see you cannot love two masters! Man what a mess you have made of scriptures Johnp.

Tim

If I miss any of your questions then ask them to me again. I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I feel no threat from you. I will answer them If I can.

 

Scott

I "assume" you believe Adam had a "FREE WILL" to chose between the tree of life and good/evil, right???

This is, "no doubt", over your head, but give the best answer you can, God created the world in six days, then rested on the seventh day, God was "Finished", was he not??

Then where did the "EIGHTH DAY" come from if God didn't "Create it"??


Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning,


I might also add Jesus was resurrected on the "EIGHTH DAY", first day of the week.

SO, "Conversely", God's active will was for man to sin, in this case, sin wasn't Adam's "CHOICE" but God's will.

"WHY" would God tell Adam not to do "GOD'S WILL", don't eat of the tree???

Everything God makes is "Perfect", "WHY" would God PLANS include destruction of his "perfect creation"???

Do you know the difference between "Foreknowledge" of something going to happen and "PLANNING" that event to happen????

God rested on the "Seventh day", he was finished, he had planted a "World of "WHEAT",

However an "enemy" came in and planted "TARES" among the "WHEAT", God's original plan did not include tares in the wheat,

however in God's "Foreknowledge", God knew someone else did plan to put the tares in the wheat, which they did, and in doing so, they ended the "Day of rest" created the ""EIGHTH DAY", in which God's spirit would have to "STRIVE" (no rest) with man, and it wasn't part of God's "Original plan".

God didn't "WILL", or plan the "EIGHTH DAY" and all it's problems, foreknowledge, yes, Planning it, NO, tares in the wheat wasn't God's plan, but the "DEVILS".

1. Sin/death enter the world
2. Jesus dying/resurrection, Eighth day
3. GWT Judgment.

You've made the comment that I don't know much about the bible except by "personal whims", so lets take the glove off and see how "DEEP" you can go into scripture before getting "lost".

Or are you already???

 

As has been said, (probably on this post, if there are any theological wits out there):

"The wonder is not that God hated Esau -I can understand why He would. The miracle of grace is that He would choose to love Jacob."

Ron Bean

 

Hello Tim.

You don't know what Calvin said or you wouldn't keep trying to make me look as if I'm a lone nutter. There is a great cloud of us nutters.
By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)

I don't say that because Calvin said it but scripture and logic took me there. The Reformation was based on the Sovereignty of God not less than Sovereignty of God.
That He creates some for Hell is an unavoidable conclusion for all of us. Did God not know Esau would reject Him? He still created him and those He knew would go to Hell didn't He? A lack of foreknowledge in God is your only way out isn't it?

If?

YOu are on your own island.
1. This is not a correct statement is it?
2. Why are you trying to portray me as isolated?
3. ...who else considers numbers important or relevant?
4. As to what Calvinists believe or don't believe or most Christians believe or do not believe is not relevant to anything is it?
5. Is it bad doctrine to teach sola scripture and the Sovereignty of God?
6. Were your founding fathers Satanic since we are of the same faith? (A simple yes or no will do.)
7. Does that say what it says? Mal 1:4-5?
8. Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. What's left for the third time?
9. That's the difference with us. I make the effort of answering all points do I not? How often do we see the same courtesy?

I am obliged to warn you. Did God command the Israelites to obey? Dt 29:3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. 4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
LEV 26:14 " `But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands...
But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

Can you explain the clear unambiguous fact that God commanded the Israelites to obey and did not give them the ability to do so?

Your teaching is unscriptural and leads many to Hell why should I hate you? I'm telling you what you are doing not that you can do anything else, puppet like. I'm obliged to tell you as I am not an hyper-Calvinist but obey the command to love my brother. But if anyone stumbles over the message then that is what they were destined for. Could you explain what destined means? 1 Peter 2:8.

Does that answer your question?

And you contradict yourself by saying no one else believes as me but at the same time you say I follow men. Now which one is it?

Why should I care what you call me, I wasn't insulted? I said it is not polite to address Calvinists as followers of Calvin I said nothing about me. Others don't like it and well you know it and it is a lie.

I'm not a follower of men then? You have ignored God's provision of teachers and if I follow anyone it is because he has a light that shines in the darkness. You on the otherhand grope in the dark unable to see anything because you have forsaken God's provision for you. Unless of course you also are a follower of men secretly. Did you disciple yourself?

I don't see what you mean and I don't see this as an answer to the point.

YOu are on your own island. MOst born again christians (non-calvinist) have not fallen for such bad doctrine and theology.
You said that I said this: "Is it bad doctrine to teach sola scripture and the Sovereignty of God?" Yes or no?

That's very kind of you I shall not need to call you anything as your words do just fine. I think you think too much of yourself. Salamander need not say anything to you as you assinate the character of God. Your god is nothing more then satan with more power. And don't take it as a complaint but your statement, ...I have never called anyone on thier salvation here or any other board., is what?

Therein is your sin. You think He is One like you? You think He is bound to law? He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. Does He love His enemies? MAL 1:4 Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins." But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD.
Does He love His enemies? Does He keep a record of wrongs? Love keeps no record of wrongs. 1 Cor 13:8. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

What's Hell but an holiday camp?

Yes you are. The scripture tells us specifically that He hates Esau and you say it doesn't say that but you cannot show that you are right unless one uses gymnastics, I on the other hand take the scripture, Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.", just as it is written don't I?


john.

 

John

But...."IF".... you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands...

What is it about the word.."IF".. that you don't understand.

What was the conditions of Open/Closed ears,

IF you will hear=Open.
IF you will not hear=Closed.

John, your reading comprehension isn't worth a "plug nickle".

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins:

and not for ours only,

BUT ALSO... for the sins of the whole world.

2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that "all" should come to repentance.

The "Gentleman" who wrote your quote above, must have had as much a "problem" with "reading comprehension" as you, but then bird of a feather do flock together.

 

Hello Me4Him.

I give in, what is it about the word.."IF".. that I don't understand.

Open or closed at a guess?

Therein lies your lie, adding to scripture. 'If' you will not listen not if you will. But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. Dt 29:3. As He wills. Not will obey but cannot hear is better comprehension but you will not hear. Who does it say gives the ears to hear with and the eyes to see with and the comprehension to comprehend with if God doesn't? (How's my use of 'if' there?) the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Rom 8:7.

Your opinion of me is of no value to me as I do not respect your opinion of me but I hear what you say.

Please help me comprehend this word 'propitiation' then if you will be so kind. Explain to me it's meaning and what it achieves.

john.

 

"IF" defines a "CHOICE",
"IF" you do this, (obey) I will do that, (open your ears)

"IF" you don't, then I won't allow you to see me.

According to your doctrine, a person doesn't need to believe to be saved, and neither is "unbelief" chargeable to people since it's isn't "THEIR UNBELIEF" that prevents them from being saved but "GOD'S WILL".

But doesn't scripture say a "PERSON'S" "belief/unbelief" Justifies/condemn them??

And God opinion was still love for us, "While we were yet still sinners", and he's no "respector of persons/sinners.

Propitiation= Substitude

The wages of sin is death, "THE LAW", no exceptions, even for Jesus.

Without the shedding of blood (a death) there is "NO REMISSION" of sin. (Somebody must die)

Jesus was the "Substitude" for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD",

but for his death to be accounted for "YOUR DEATH"...."YOU MUST..BELIEVE..IN HIM.

Abraham "BELIEVED GOD" and "IT" (his belief/Faith) was counted to him as "RIGHTEOUSNESS".

And it's the same with "US", we must "BELIEVE", have "FAITH", in Jesus's death and "IT", (Jesus's death) will be accounted as the "SUBTITUDE" for our death to pay the wages of our sins.

"IF" we don't believe, Jesus's death for sin is not "imputed/accounted to us", (no righteousness) man must then pays the wage of sin himself.

Only "Death" (the law's requirements) can "remit the wages of sin".

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (die)

Calvins "Double jeopardy", "predestination" clearly shows an ignorance about the "plan of salvation".

 

Me4Him,

What's with all your "QUOTATION MARKS"?

 

I guess I just "love them".

 

Hello Me4Him.

Away we go with evasion again. Answer the point or tell me you refuse to answer the point. (You said you do not know what I believe.)

But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. Dt 29:3.

Who is it that causes one to have the heart and eyes and ears to believe. Explain Dt 29:3.

Your the first I have heard that believes this. Charges follow liability and condemnation follows Adam's choice. Who is it that causes one to have the heart and eyes and ears to believe. Explain Dt 29:3.

Who is it? Evade the point as long as you like but it will not go away. HEB 12:25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?
Unbelief is chargable. See! You don't understand what you hate so much?

What do you mean by asking me what scripture says don't you know? It says God has mercy on who He wants and hardens who He wants first. Who was it that put us into this position? For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Rom 11:32.
Who is it that causes one to have the heart and eyes and ears to believe. Explain Dt 29:3.

I thought you said He respects us enough not to interfer with free will which is it. Does He respect us or not? How can love have no respect for it's object?

Now you know that's not true and another place you shy away from. Eze 33:12 And if I say to the wicked man, `You will surely die,' but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right-- 15 if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die. 16 None of the sins he has committed will be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live. That is also the law. No blood is required for sin to be forgotten.

I know that.

Propitiation= Substitude Then He was the substitute wasn't He? Substituted me didn't He?

2 : something that appeases or conciliates a deity : ATONEMENT; specifically : the self-sacrifice and death of Jesus Christ to appease divine justice and to effect reconciliation between God and man

It does, without anything else, appease God's wrath to me and to those it was given for. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." Matt 1:21.

Who did Christ die for? His people by any chance? Yes and with effect.

"propitiation." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (6 Feb. 2006).

Where does Calvin talk of double jeopardy? Please show me. If Christ died for my sin and I do not believe Him why do I have to suffer that which Christ suffered (somewhat)? That is two punishments for one crime and your opinion is meaningless unless you can show me that Christ dying has no effect. Your statement is false, unsupported and a nonsense. Answer the points with scripture as your opinion means nothing without scriptural support.

john.

 

quote:
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Timtoolman.....This statement I just have to chuckle at. Here is a calvinist who believes God controls man like a puppet even to the pt of makeing him sin. And yet I can teach so that men go to hell!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JohnP.......Your teaching is unscriptural and leads many to Hell why should I hate you? I'm telling you what you are doing not that you can do anything else, puppet like. I'm obliged to tell you as I am not an hyper-Calvinist but obey the command to love my brother. But if anyone stumbles over the message then that is what they were destined for. Could you explain what destined means? 1 Peter 2:8.

Does that answer your question?

Timtoolman.........No it didn't it jsut dug you deeper. My pt was how can I thwart God's plan by teaching a doctrine that sends people to hell when all are chosen and will be saved? Again you contradict yourself. How can anyone who does not have free choice be sent to hell because of a false teaching according too calvinism??!!

 

Hello Timtoolman.

Ok you win. No one is sent to Hell because of what another says but what you preach is used by God and it is not for the good of your hearer and you will be held responsible for that.
1KI 22:23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

So now a big effort from you. Back up your words:

YOu are on your own island. You said that.
1. This is not a correct statement is it?
2. Why are you trying to portray me as isolated?
3. ...who else considers numbers important or relevant?
4. As to what Calvinists believe or don't believe or most Christians believe or do not believe is not relevant to anything is it?
5. Is it bad doctrine to teach sola scripture and the Sovereignty of God?
6. Were your founding fathers Satanic since we are of the same faith? (A simple yes or no will do.)
7. Does that say what it says? Mal 1:4-5?
8. Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. What's left for the third time?
9. That's the difference with us. I make the effort of answering all points do I not? How often do we see the same courtesy?

10. I am obliged to warn you. Did God command the Israelites to obey? Dt 29:3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. 4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
LEV 26:14 " `But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands...
But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

Can you explain the clear unambiguous fact that God commanded the Israelites to obey and did not give them the ability to do so?

11. Could you explain what destined means? 1 Peter 2:8.

You said: I am not a follower of men johnp, you contradict yourself above by acting insulted for being a follower of calvin yet you admitt to being a follower of others.

12. And you contradict yourself by saying no one else believes as me but at the same time you say I follow men. Now which one is it?

13. "Is it bad doctrine to teach sola scripture and the Sovereignty of God?" Yes or no?

You said: Why would a God who is love tell us to love our enemies when He does not?

14. Therein is your sin. You think He is One like you? You think He is bound to law?

You said: Why would a God who is love tell us to love our enemies when He does not?

15. What's Hell but an holiday camp?

16. I on the other hand take the scripture, Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.", just as it is written don't I?

There you go man I can't wait.


john.

 

JohnP: 1. This is not a correct statement is it?

Timtoolman: Yes I believe it is JohnP. I am saying so because you are the only Calvinist that attributes sin to God’s character. This is the place where you leave most if not all of your Calvinist brothers behind. If I am wrong then let the others on here pt it out too me. I know there are many Calvinist but not to the very extreme you are Johnp. This is about the 3rd time I have answered this.

JohnP: 2. Why are you trying to portray me as isolated?

Timtoolman: Answered again, see above or earlier post. Maybe I did not make myself clear it is your stance on God being the author of sin that sets you on that island.

JohnP: . ...who else considers numbers important or relevant?


Timtoolman: I do, and if many scholars disagree on Calvinism and most born again Christians are not Calvinist I think it is very prideful to say that Calvinist have it right absolutely.

JohnP: 4. As to what Calvinists believe or don't believe or most Christians believe or do not believe is not relevant to anything is it?

Timtoolman: then why the earlier questions question 2 and 3. Then state you don’t care and let it go. I think it is relevant per my statement on the questions before this one.

Johnp: 5. Is it bad doctrine to teach sola scripture and the Sovereignty of God?

Timtoolman: My answer again is………….No, but I fail to see what that has to do with what you are espousing.

Johnp: . Were your founding fathers Satanic since we are of the same faith? (A simple yes or no will do.)

Timtoolman: I don’t believe we agree with the same founding fathers. Which founding father says God is the author of sin?

JohnP: 7. Does that say what it says? Mal 1:4-5?

Timtoolman: Yes? Pt?

JohnP: . Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. What's left for the third time?

Timtoolman: Johnp you have grabbed a verse and I think you feel you have found a new doctrine or something. You flatter yourself. It means to put God first in everything not to hate, despise all others. He tells us to love our enemies yet you tell me I can’t because I have used all my love on God. See your error?! You are going crazy with this thing and it is making a God contradict himself. You tell me that after I love God and put Him first that I cannot possibly have love for others as God commands. Your way or the Bible’s JohnP,….I will have to stick with the Bible. Answered for the third time!!!!!

Johnp: . That's the difference with us. I make the effort of answering all points do I not? How often do we see the same courtesy?

Timtoolman: Yes you do Johnp but you also have the great ability to ignore answers. I on the other hand to miss questions and will respond if you remind me. However you don’t like my answers that is fine but do not expect me to keep answering as I have in this post.

JohnP: 10. I am obliged to warn you. Did God command the Israelites to obey? Dt 29:3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. 4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
LEV 26:14 " `But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands...
But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

Can you explain the clear unambiguous fact that God commanded the Israelites to obey and did not give them the ability to do so?

Timtoolman: Yes I can Johnp. This passage is quoted in the NT 5 or 6 times. In a couple of those it states earlier that they did not believe so God Blinded them, closed their ears etc. I believe you should take in all of scriptures for your understanding.

JohnP: 11. Could you explain what destined means? 1 Peter 2:8.

Timtoolman: Good verse JohnP, Yes those who stumble, why, because they do not believe, are destine to stumble over the word for it is truth. So those that disobey the word are destine to stumble over it.


JOhnP: 12. And you contradict yourself by saying no one else believes as me but at the same time you say I follow men. Now which one is it?

Timtoolman: I think I asked that questions first JohnP you said you followed no one then claimed that you did. Whatever I could care less about this argument. I will give you one here and say you are not a follower of men. As too saying no one else’s believe’s as you do………………………yawn, see above on your assessing sin to God’s
Character.

JohnP: 13. "Is it bad doctrine to teach sola scripture and the Sovereignty of God?" Yes or no?

Timtoolman: redundant question..answered over and over again!

Johnp: 14. Therein is your sin. You think He is One like you? You think He is bound to law?

Timtoolman: No I do not….still showed the contradiction in that belief above.

JohnP: 15. What's Hell but a holiday camp?

Timtoolman: Have no idea what this is suppose to mean or pt too? I would not call it a holiday camp if that is the question. Rather odd?

JohnP: 16. I on the other hand take the scripture, Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.", just as it is written don't I?

Timtoolman: Yes you do. Me I prefer to let scripture speak for scripture. This is talking about an election of a nation. Were only people of Israel saved in the OT or were others saved from different nations. Were they had to accept the God of Israel?