1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Will- Is there not a cause?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Dec 23, 2010.

?

Do choices have causes?

  1. No.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  2. Yes.

    9 vote(s)
    90.0%

  3. Not that simple- I will explain

    1 vote(s)
    10.0%
Top Posters
Page 7 of 10
  1. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    78
    Everything has a cause though, right?

    So, what is the cause of Satan and Adam being the source of evil?
     
    #121 matt wade, Dec 24, 2010
  2. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    I think that is a very good question.

    I will tell you what I think if you will tell me whether you agree that choices have causes or not.
     
    #122 Luke2427, Dec 24, 2010
  3. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    78
    Again, I'm here to evaluate Calvinism. If Calvinism is the truth, it will have me turn away from any false beliefs I might have. We don't need to worry about what I do or do not believe.

    Let's let Calvinism stand on it's own. Surely it can withstand that test, can't it?

    So, what is the cause of Satan and Adam being the source of evil?
     
    #123 matt wade, Dec 24, 2010
  4. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    God is the ultimate cause for everything.

    Amos 3:6

    Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done [it]?
     
    #124 Luke2427, Dec 24, 2010
  5. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    78
    OK, I'm glad we got that straight. So, sin entered the world because God caused it, correct? God caused Satan to rebel originally, correct?
     
    #125 matt wade, Dec 24, 2010
  6. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    Not the direct cause but the ultimate cause- yes.

    A good illustration of how this works is Job.

    Satan was the direct cause of Job's suffering.

    Satan put his hand on Job's family and wealth, etc... and destroyed it.

    But Job understood something that "free willers" do not.

    He said, "The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away."

    Then when Satan touched Job's body and struck with boils, Job told his wife, "Shall we receive good FROM GOD and not evil?"

    Satan was the agent and the direct cause and his motive was evil.

    But God was the ultimate cause and his motive was holy.
     
    #126 Luke2427, Dec 24, 2010
  7. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    78
    Let's not deal with lower levels. I'd rather deal with the origin, as it were.

    I ask again about Satan. Satan rebelled. He made a choice to rebel. What was the cause of his choice?
     
    #127 matt wade, Dec 24, 2010
  8. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    What do you mean lower levels? I gave you the ULTIMATE origin- is that not what you asked?

    You want a simple answer to an infinitely complex question- you are not going to get it from me or anybody on either side of the aisle- ever.

    The Arminian cannot fully account for it.

    The Calvinist cannot fully account for it.

    The Molinist cannot fully account for it.

    Anyone who hates labels and thinks that makes them bible followers still cannot account for it.

    I gave you what I think amounts to a fantastic, albeit perhaps a bit too simplistic, answer to your question.

    I don't know what else you want.

    God is the ultimate cause- that is all ANYONE can say.

    What is it that you are wanting me to say?
     
    #128 Luke2427, Dec 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2010
  9. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    1
    God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it."
    –John Calvin (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, XXII
     
    #129 quantumfaith, Dec 24, 2010
  10. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    Bingo. There it is.
     
    #130 Luke2427, Dec 24, 2010
  11. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    1
    #131 quantumfaith, Dec 24, 2010
  12. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    78
    Here's where we differ. I believe that God is the cause of our ability to choose, but he is not the cause of the choices we make. God built into man the ability to make choices, and to make those choices freely.

    If I created a robot and gave that robot the ability to choose different paths, do I dictate to the robot what path it must take? No, I gave it the ability to choose any path it wishes. It is the robots choice and responsibility to choose the path.
     
    #132 matt wade, Dec 24, 2010
  13. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    Neither would you be in control of that robot.

    And that robot's choices will come down to bits a bites of information that you programmed it with that are too complex for you to be able to predict what choices it would make.

    God is not so. If God made the robot he would know exactly the outcome of every bit and bite of info down to the minutest detail as he was designing it. He would know that if he tweaked it here what it would cause the robot to choose and if he tweaked it ever so slightly there what it would cause the robot to choose there.

    While designing that robot, God would know what that design plus the circumstance (which he also designed) would cause that robot to do on Monday the 11th of January ten years from now.

    You see that robot's choices are the result of a combination of its microprocessor and the circumstances which present themselves to the robot.

    God would control ALL of that- he designed ALL of it knowing EXACTLY what it would cause the robot to choose on January the 11th Monday night at 5:01 ten years from now.

    God's design of the robot and the circumstances ULTIMATELY caused the robot to choose what he chose.
     
    #133 Luke2427, Dec 24, 2010
  14. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    78
    Yes, so you believe that God is the cause of murder, rape, and every other evil deed. I don't believe that. I won't ever believe that God is the cause of those things. I think our discussion is done. We've reached a place where we have decided that we worship different gods.
     
    #134 matt wade, Dec 24, 2010
  15. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    1
    Becareful Luke, you are wading into the waters of the Molinism. :)
     
    #135 quantumfaith, Dec 24, 2010
  16. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    Ahhhh... and here comes the rape thing.

    Always the rape thing.

    You not liking it doesn't make it not true.

    God is the ultimate cause of all things.

    He could have designed the universe in such a way that no one was ever raped but he didn't.

    What does that tell you?

    Think about it and consider Romans 11:36 "For of him and through him and to him are ALL things to whom be glory forever and ever."

    If you believe in a god who is NOT the ultimate cause of all things then you may be in a bad way.

    Fortunately I think God is patient and merciful even when we say we do not believe in Him as He is.
     
    #136 Luke2427, Dec 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2010
  17. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wait. You have been clear many times that you would not talk about what you believe. You have been asked, and say over and over....this is not about what I believe. Yet now you tell us.

    Being that you now want to tell us what you believe, why not go back and answer what you dodged before? It seems like you just want to control the debate within your frame work, telling others to answer as you wish them to.
     
    #137 Jarthur001, Dec 24, 2010
  18. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    8,423
    Likes Received:
    1,160
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It certainly doesn't tell one that God is the "cause" of sin.

    Let me ask you something: Can an individual without volition be logically/truthfuly held morally responsible for his choices?
     
    #138 Benjamin, Dec 24, 2010
  19. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    8,423
    Likes Received:
    1,160
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Free will should be defined as volition and this sustains the meaning that a creature has the ability to consciously choose; one can not do both, have this ability and not have this ability in any logical sense. If creaturely response is determined by causal means to have an irresistible effect on the creature then creaturely volition logically becomes void.
     
    #139 Benjamin, Dec 24, 2010
  20. Steven2006

    Steven2006 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    2,065
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just because God allows someone to choose sin, doesn't mean He is the cause of that sin.

    God hates sin, He is not causing us to sin.
     
    #140 Steven2006, Dec 24, 2010
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 7 of 10
Loading...