Wine and gambling

[sandrocksam]

All my life I have heard drinking and gambling are a sin. I believe that we should each know why we believe the things we believe. From a social stand point I can see where both are useful tools of Satan. Scriptually speaking I can find no strong support for either of these being a sin. Why are we so strong against wine and gambling?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by sandrocksam:
Why are we so strong against wine and gambling?

John 2:9 (ESV)
When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom

Acts 1:26 (ESV)
And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

I don't have a problem with either as long as one does not become drunk with one or obsessed with the other. Moderation, moderation, moderation is the key to both of these items.

But these subjects are often discussed on this board. You can count on lots of
arguing.

 

[David Mark]

If refraining from drinking wine or even the simplest form of gambling helps my conscience before God, then I will strive to refrain and hope for a better outcome. That is between me and my Father. If my refraining helps your conscience then I will also strive to refrain for your sake.

However, if I teach that drinking wine and gambling is purely a sin, and that you sin whenever you do it, then I set myself up as as a judge and as one who knows the mind of God in your life on those two issues. I am not that kind of person.

On the other hand, I know there is danger in the abuse of each. So I am not against warning folks to be extra careful and maybe even consider refraining from those things altogether if they are able to.

There are more than enough Scriptures about wine and money to make a man wise in the use or non-use of each. If Scripture is not consulted, life itself will teach that the abuse of wine and/or the love of money leads to the wilderness.

Dave

 

[sandrocksam]

I think it was Paul who said it is wrong to eat or drink are do anything if it offends are makes another weak, but that would seem to be on a person to person basis and would not define a church policy against wine and gambling. There are so many scriptures that refer to wine concerning God's blessings and obviously Jesus drank wine (not grape juice as some say). If the Word of God refers to wine in a positive sense, and is totally silence on gambling why are we so strong against it as a Baptist church and denomination? This seems to be a policy that defines us and I do not understand why.

 

[RaptureReady]

Personnally, I believe it has an appearance of evil, so therefore I will obstain. Besides, Jesus never gave anyone fermented wine to drink. Also, I believe gambling robs God of what is his.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
Besides, Jesus never gave anyone fermented wine to drink.

Sure He did at the last supper.

Matthew 26:27 (ESV)
And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you,

Also, He obviously drank fermented drink Himself.

Matthew 11:19 (ESV)
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."

 

[RaptureReady]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HomeBound:
Besides, Jesus never gave anyone fermented wine to drink.

Sure He did at the last supper.

Matthew 26:27 (ESV)
And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you,

Also, He obviously drank fermented drink Himself.

Matthew 11:19 (ESV)
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds." </font>[/QUOTE]It was unfermented wine.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HomeBound:
Besides, Jesus never gave anyone fermented wine to drink.

Sure He did at the last supper.

Matthew 26:27 (ESV)
And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you,

Also, He obviously drank fermented drink Himself.

Matthew 11:19 (ESV)
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds." </font>[/QUOTE]It was unfermented wine. </font>[/QUOTE]My parents were grape growers and produced wine as well. Do you have any idea what real grape juice tastes like and how long unfermented wine would last without spoiling in the weather it is usually harvested in? I have seen grapes begin to rot before they got off the truck.

 

[KenH]

If the wine Jesus drank was unfermented, then His accusers would not have called Him a drunkard, unless one can get drunk on unfermented wine.

This fermented wine-phobia among some Christians is an absolutely ludicrous attempt to prove what is not Biblically provable - that a Christian is not permitted to drink any alcoholic beverage in moderation.

 

[sandrocksam]

Is there such a thing as unfermented wine ?
I thought that the difference between grape juice and wine was the fermentation, am I wrong ?

 

[Ephesus23]

I am an IFB, and I am VERY much against gambling and drinking, especially drinking. Before I got saved, I was against alcohol of ANY kind or amount, and now I'm even more against it. Yes, the Bible doesn't say you can't have ANY at all; however, it does say not to get drunk with wine.

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceieved thereby is not wise." -Proberbs 20:1

"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess, but be filled with the spirit." -Ephesians 5:18

Although the Bible doesn't necessairly say there's anything wrong with drinking in moderation, I prefer to not drink at all- not even a SIP. I don't want to start a habit of drinking just a little, and have it give way to drinking a lot, and then not be able to stop myself.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Casting "lots" is gambling. However, the men who cast lots in the Bible did not PAY to PLAY...

As far as the wine vs grapejuice; obviously this verse shows there IS a difference and the drunkard prefers the OLD to the NEW.

"No man also having drunk old [wine] straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better." Luke 5:39

§ue

 

[HankD]

I abstain from alcohol now because of other Christians.

If I were a member where it didn't matter I would probably have wine with my meals.

One observation: Some Christians who abstain from alcohol take medication far more toxic than alcohol such as Valium (for instance) which is addictive.

Does a prescription forgive all?

How about God's prescription?

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Mind you, I am an abstainer.

HankD

[ December 27, 2003, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[HankD]

There is no way that unfermented wine would stay in that state (especially in a semi-arrid climate) for more than 2 weeks unless it was boiled down into a solid.

Also biblical "strong drink" is distilled wine, although in ancient days they attached superstition to strong drink (calling it spirits). It was used to mix with water while on trips or where clear "living water" was not available. If the traveler was not sure of the water he was drinking he would mix the "strong drink" with it and the "spirits" would drive away the "death" in the water. So alcohol had a legitimate use in biblical days (although misunderstood).

Many abused it of course using it to get drunk quickly.

HankD

 

[sandrocksam]

Please do not misunderstand me, I am not for drinking or gambling, I just want to understand why we are so strong against these two in the Baptist church.
I do not see scripture identifying the man who prefers the old wine to the new as a "drunkard", scripture does identify drunkardness as a sin. When the wine is spoken ill of it clearly identifys it with excess.
As for casting lots: You will note that the Apostles cast lots to replace Judas. (I think they were not in God's will when they did that, but that would be another discussion.)

 

[HankD]

Most assume that the apostles did a kind of "roll of the dice" when selecting Matthias, but what do you do when you vote for a president?

You cast your bal-lot (lot).

The apostles probably voted by writing a name and casting their ballot into a hat. We don't know if they then counted the majority or picked one out of the hat or what.

HankD

 

[David Mark]

Originally posted by sandrocksam:
why we are so strong against these two in the Baptist church.

Warm smile,

I'm in the Baptist church. I think I posted very fairly. Many here have posted very wise and fair comments. I know they are in the Baptist church also.

My conclusion is that from the posts here, there are some very wise and well tempered folks in the baptist church.

In the Baptist church I go to, I have never heard anyone speak unfairly on these two topics either.

Cheers,

Dave.

 

[sandrocksam]

Neat observation HANKD.
I just mention the Apostles casting lots because many people mention casting lots as gambling and refer to the Roman soldiers casting lots for Jesus' garments. Some do not want to look at the two incidents in the same light. I see no difference, both would qualify as gambling as defined by some of us Baptist but they chose to ignore the actions of the Apostles.

 

[HankD]

but they chose to ignore the actions of the Apostles.

Yes, sometimes they are TOO human for our Baptists temperments

HankD

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by sandrocksam:
All my life I have heard drinking and gambling are a sin...Scriptually speaking I can find no strong support for either of these being a sin. Why are we so strong against wine and gambling?

Ah, the age old question. The reason you can't find biblical support to call them sin is because they're not. Abuse of them, however, clearly is sin. Many well-meaning Baptists aren't able to discern the difference.