women and careers

SaggyWoman, as I read this part of your post I thought of myself about 12 years ago. I, too, had these same thoughts...I'd work after I got married just until the babies came. Well, the babies never came! I was sitting in my office one day and I got to thinking about what Elkanah said to his wife, Hanah, in I Samuel 1:8, "...am not I better to thee than ten sons?" My heart was pricked by this. I got to thinking ,well, I would quit work for my children but not for my husband?! OUCH! So, I decided right then and there that that was it...I'm quitting work and going home to be a fulltime wife! I had been working for the first five years of our marriage and had accumulated bills of my own. So, it took me a few months to get them paid off and then I quit. That was 7 years ago and I never once regret doing it. Yes, 'society' thinks I'm crazy...but I don't care. I enjoy being home with my husband and being available whenever he wants to go somewhere or do something. I no longer have to ask my boss for permission to be with my husband. I must say that since I quit work we've had 4 bad crop years in a row...I mean severe bad crop years!!! But, the Lord has always provided for us during this time! AMEN!!! If I had it to do all over again, I would have quit my job before I married. I don't know why, but the Lord laid it on my heart to share this with you.

 

Hi Helen. Thank you for the excellent comments. You will notice from my earlier post, that it referred to those "married with children" - not single moms. Nevertheless, Biblical truths need to be explored to reach the very best possible solution in any given situation. First, please allow me to applaud your outstanding example of intelligent budgeting and wise money management skills. You could sure teach those folks at Enron and Worldcom a thing or two about money management (smile). You will be pleased to know that many of us, like you, have learned to live on a tight budget - some of us with families even larger than your wonderful one!

I respectfully disagree with your comment that "single parenting is equal to the two parent family." I am not interested in emulating "our culture" Helen. I'm interested in elevating it. To a large degree, I do not believe that our "modern culture" is a worthy example of family values at all. It is BEST for a child to have DAD & MOM under one roof (though I acknowledge the existence of the shameful degraded morality and mindstate of many men and women in our modern culture that all too often destroy this GOD sanctioned standard).

I'm sure you would agree that the inerrant Biblical information on this subject is the BEST information on this topic. The Biblical concepts that I suggested should not so much make one feel "guilty" but rather provide the vehicle for Biblical hope to alter an un-Biblical predicament.

I agree that "helping helps." What can be more helpful than the truths found in the Bible? You should not feel criticized as a result of what the Bible plainly states Helen. You should feel enlightened. If you don't agree with a Biblical interpretation that is fine - but then use the Bible itself as your instrument of rebuttal.

Situations similiar to the one you describe, serve to illustrate only part of the suffering that occurs when divorce or seperation strike a family. Yet, the world - and all too often the so called church - eagerly embrace the divorce scenario as a quick and easy option. GOD hates divorce (Mal. 2: 15-16). Any man who does not provide for his family (unless disabled) is an infidel and WORSE than an unbeliever (1 Tim. 5:8). A woman should be a "keeper of the home" (Titus 2: 4-5, 1 Tim. 5: 14). How often does a typical church or pastor discuss these verses? Rarely! How many churches follow the Biblical command found in (James 2: 15-17)? In a typical year 2002 congregation, I am sure many don't - to their shame and humiliation. Most churches pass out the collection plate routinely (1 Cor. 16: 3), but rarely reverse the direction of that money flow back to the congregational members who might need assistance (James 2: 15-17). I hope your experience has been different with your church.

There may be other options to working outside of the home. For example, perhaps a single mom could figure out a way to make a living from the home? (Proverbs 31: 10-31). I recently read an article about a divorced single mom employed at a company (I think it was IBM) whose job enabled her to work from HOME! Many single moms who have followed this model have not only provided for their family, but have been able to stay at home and raise the children too. GOD knows situations. HE mercifully provides opportunities such as this one (perhaps to offset the the dismal church record on divorce and the James 2: 15-17 model).

In closing; it is simply too easy to "feel sorry" for the self, while quasi justifying otherwise un-Biblical alternatives. Often enough, some "moms" WANT to go out of the home to work, rather than stay at home with their children. It's more fun, entertaining, and glamorous (so they think). We have options Helen - GOD PROVIDES them. We simply need to explore them with an open heart and open mind. All the best.

latterrain77

 

Helen, how ever did you make it during those times? Your post got me to thinking about all the women with children I know that work in public and none of them are in your situation. All of their husbands have jobs and they could stay home if they would just learn to live within their husbands means. I know that's hard to do when you're so accustomed to having more. But it's been worth it for me...I've never gone without since I've been home.

I wanted to tell you that I did keep children from a particular family for free on a daily basis. The wife claimed that she wanted to quit work and stay home with her two beautiful baby girls but she just had so many bills that they couldn't make it on her husband's income unless those bills were paid. I offered to keep her girls for free so that she could spend all of her income on paying the bills off. Well, this went on for a couple of years and instead of paying the bills she was making more ...such as buying the latest model car, truck, clothing, vacations, do-dads, eating out, etc. After it dawned on me that I was being used, I quit. It broke my heart for those two precious girls...all they wanted was for their Mama to be home with them.

 

Latterrain -- I had to laugh at the misunderstanding. I meant that the NUMBERS of single parent families are becoming about equal to two-parent families, not the quality! I'm sorry I didn't make myself clearer. Nothing can replace a dad and a mom with the kids.

And I also agree that the best option is for mom to be at home with the kids.

And, yes, the Lord does provide many options many times.

But sometimes it is not possible for a mother to be home no matter what. In those cases, we really need to be careful about judging. My family was incredibly supportive, by the way. When our old Toyota van was literally losing pieces on the roadway, my brother and his wife put together $18,000 and GAVE us a new van, one year old, with air conditioning that really worked! I was so stunned I couldn't see for the tears for about fifteen minutes. My oldest son took his scholarship money for college and when our refrigerator, dryer and washer all gave out the same MONTH, a year after their dad left, he bought us new everything. As I recall, he threw in a VCR as well.

On the other hand, we have raised a lot of our own food and have chickens. They provide eggs and manure. We can't eat them because they each (we only have a dozen) have names. You don't eat an animal that has a name!

I look back and I honestly don't know how we did it either. I really don't. It was God's grace start to finish, I know. Somehow the money was there when it was needed. Or gifts. The Safeway manager asked me if I would be the one to pick up the day old stuff every Monday morning and take it to the food kitchen ten miles up the freeway. When I said sure, I would be happy to, he mentioned I should stop by my own home on the way up and unload what we might want or need. That went on for several of the worst years.

We live on an acre that was loaded with oak trees that had to be cut down when we built this house. That gave us firewood for about seven years. We also have LP and a tank, of course, that gets filled by the local gas company. The owner's name is Dan. One winter he noticed by gas bill had skyrocketed and he mentioned that to me. I told him we were out of firewood and actually had to turn the heater on now!

The next time I saw him he had a load of firewood -- over a cord of it -- in his big pickup. He not only delivered it as a gift, he stacked it in the garage. This, keep in mind, decreased his business for the rest of the winter where our family was concerned, to say nothing of the initial outlay for the wood...

I couldn't have done it without friends and family. They were incredible.

Four of the six kids are grown and gone now and I'm a granny! We are not in such desperate straits -- except this week when a new stove top got delivered the day the refigerator sprung a major leak that is way deep inside and we can fix it ourselves, soooooo, I'm sitting here waiting for the refrigerator delivery man now. God bless Sears for interest-free payments for a year! But these replace those my son bought for us so many years ago. The washer and dryer also had to be replaced this past year.

Has anyone else noticed that the life span for a lot of major appliances is about ten years? That's a BUNCH of expense at the end of ten years!

About being taken for granted and used as a free babysitter -- it's probably happened to everyone who has volunteered services at one time or another! People are strange, aren't they? Nevertheless, offering help can be a lifesaver, as my testimony above shows, I think. Watch how far it goes and how it is used and pray for the wisdom to know what to do when the situation appears different from what you thought or when it changes.

Many blessings to all,
Helen

 

I agree that staying home and raising children is a career in itself. But, as Helen said that isn't always possible. I have been blessed to be able to be home when my children were little (I have a little one now). When I went to work, I worked in childcare so that my children could be with me. I didn't work to have extras, but to pay for actual needs. Right now I am looking for a daycare job for the same reason. Sometimes bills just accumulate, and out of a desire to be debt free, my hubby and I came to the decision that I need to work.

I say judge that you be not judged, in this regard, because you never know the actual circumstances, and desires of the family. My hubby has been going to college working on 2 Doctorates right now and it seems like forever, and we are paying as we go, while at the same time I am finishing up my degree. College isn't cheap, and that explains just a small part of why I have decided to work.

Placing a legalistic standard on other believers, is bondage, and I refuse to be put under the yoke of bondage (see Galatians).

 

Staying at home is a job, no doubt about that, but being born a woman doesn't mean you were born to that job. I'm pretty sure the cancer victim whose life is saved by a female neurosurgeon is glad that the doctor chose that noble and wonderful career. Some women are perfectly fulfilled staying at home. Others are driven crazy by it. Same also with some men. Each couple needs to find what works best for them and their children.

If everyone is happy and fulfilled, and their needs are beeing met, why criticize them?

Brigit

 

Brigit, I think I understand where you are coming from, but what happened to a woman praying to know God's will for her life? No, I'm not saying that means staying at home 24/7, but don't you think God knows best what is best for any particular person and family?

It's not just a matter of our perception of everyone's needs being met and such, but of whether or not the woman is following Christ and, if she is married, her husband's desire as head of the house as well.

After 9 years of being a single parent and being responsible for every decision and taking on every responsibility, I cannot begin to tell you how grateful I was when there was someone else to take the leadership role -- my wonderful husband. I appreciate God's directions for marriage more than I ever did before! I don't know how to explain this, really, but I feel like I am where I belong now.

And oh yeah, gals, the new refrigerator is absolutely gorgeous! IT CAME ALREADY CLEAN!

 

Helen,

Following God's will for us is certainly part of being fulfilled.

As for Joshua being the head of the household - that's not our understanding of the marriage covenant. It certainly is nice to share the responsibilities with someone, but that doesn't mean I'm any less responsible.

I am glad you feel like you're where God wants you, and I feel the same.

Brigit

 

I have a bachelor's degree in Elem Educ and taught school for 2 years before having children. I am now a stay at home mom,actually still teaching. I am a homeschool mom of 2 elem age daughters.(actually this is my first year to homeschool,but we have already started) I have never wanted to work outside the home,nor have I *had* to. I am blessed to have a husband that desires for me to be with the children. I am trying to fulfill God's role of being a home keeper,teaching my children about Him,and being a submissive wife to a godly husband. I do appreciate the fact that I have these blessings from God and never want to take for granted my precious time with my children. They are a blessing.

I think it is true we have all been given special talents and gifts from God,and as women we should use them first in the home,whether that is working from the home with your children with you,working on a farm with your children helping,assisting your husband in a family business,still being home,or homeschooling and just taking care of all the responsibilities that goes with running a home and raising godly children. It is a full time job,and I would be cheating everyone if that was not my priority.

I am grateful for all these things.

 

Reading Molly's post started me thinking about something else, two things, actually.

1. The years go so fast! In a few weeks they are not newborns anymore. In a year they are walking, and in a couple more talking a blue streak. T-ball becomes softball. Dressing up dolls suddenly becomes dressing up for Homecoming. It goes so fast! I know that the nights when you are up late with a sick child, or when one of them is going through a rough stage, it can seem like forever.

But then it's gone. The little kid who brought you flowering weeds when you were sick is an engineer now. The young son who took apart the VCR to see how it worked is married and a father himself. The daughter who brought you breakfast in bed sometimes when it wasn't Mother's Day has a different bed now -- one she shares with her husband. The little one who clapped her hands over her mouth in gaping astonishment to hear her name in a song is now singing solos herself on stage, a young woman.

The house is mostly quiet now. I can walk down the hall and see where a door frame is scratched from someone bumping something into it. Was I mad at the time? I look at that scratch and smile. I no longer hear them shouting for each other and no longer holler back "Turn it DOWN, you guys!"

The grandchildren live too far away for me to hold one in my lap in the big rocking chair the way I used to with my crew and sing folk songs and spirituals and 'name' songs (each child had a song with his or her name in it) for an hour before bedtime. Actually, that old rocking chair sort of got rocked to death and we have a new one now....hardly used.

I was home for most of it, and I am so very, very thankful now. The memories of baking and hiking and cleaning and teasing and the myriad of animals, of gym lessons and music lessons, of homeschooling and cheering them on -- they all roll through my mind when I want them to and I find myself smiling and in love with my kids all over again.

It went by so fast. And now I have the time for a career if I want, and I can sleep more sometimes, and I don't usually fall into bed unconscious from exhaustion before my head hits the pillow...

But the kids told me once that they would make sure my old age wrinkles were grin wrinkles and not frown wrinkles. I'm not quite old yet, but the wrinkles are certainly coming and, true to their collective word, most of them are grin wrinkles.

I'm so glad I was at home so much of the time.

2. I wonder who the kids would have talked to if they didn't really know me well enough to talk to me frankly and openly? It takes time to build the kind of trust a teenager can lean on when he or she has a problem. How does the jammed up schedule of a mom always working outside the home allow for the time that takes? My kids used to bring home friends who would end up talking for hours to me -- their folks weren't home long enough.

For your sake, ladies, and for your children's sakes, stay at home as much as possible during those fleeting years. And don't think that because they are teens they 'don't need you anymore' and you are suddenly free. Here is something I learned: they need you as much or more as teens than they did as toddlers. Taking unsure mental steps is as difficult as the physical ones were. They may fight you tooth and nail at times, but they need you desperately. If you don't hold up a standard and cheer them on, who will? If you don't take the time to figuratively prop your eyelids open with toothpicks while a teen works through a problem out loud late into the night, who will? If you aren't there when they get home from school, who will be? That is when the news is bursting to get out. A lot of it simply doesn't hold until after dinner.

I had the privilege of staying at home for a long time. Then I had to work outside the home for awhile. Then I was able to work here at home when we established a registered private school and I hired two other teachers for the kids who wanted to come here. I had it all, at one time or another. It was ALL hard. It was ALL rewarding. The kids, however, wanted me home. They did better with me than without me.

And, for me, that is where the rubber meets the road. God set up a family for a reason. Children are dependant for a long time for a reason.

I don't judge those who have to work, but I truly urge those who work because they WANT to but don't need to, "If you have children, go home. Soon they won't be there anymore, but while they are, they need you very, very much."

You really got me going, Molly!

 

Hello Chaplain's Wife, Ms. Villines, & Scarlet O. Thank you for your terrific comments. I do not believe that quoting Biblical text, or the substance of that text, is "legalistic" as suggested by Chaplain's Wife. I agree with you that Galatians 3 speaks about real legalism (i.e. bondage to OT law), however Gal. 3 is entirely irrelevant as a means of deflecting Titus 2 (which, incidentaly, has nothing to do with the "law" at all, as the Titus 2: 2 text itself plainly states). Titus 2 is the "gold standard" of motherhood and there is nothing legalistic in suggesting that it is.

Ms. Villines, we are in agreement on your comment that "being born a woman dosen't mean you were born into that job {motherhood}." Motherhood is not for everyone - true. However, once you BECOME a mother (starting at conception), then it DOES become a job (the job) - a most glorious and noble one. I'm sure your children would define you as "mom" not "neurosurgeon." I don't think it is "criticizing" when suggesting Biblical verses in a discussion. Was the LORD "criticizing" when HE confronted un-Biblical situations? I don't think so. I believe he was educating - not criticizing. Recall how the LORD backed up his statements with Scripture (Mark 7: 6, Luke 19: 46). This is called "righteous judgement" (John 7: 24) and we are commanded to use it (ideally with the Galatians 5: 22-23 standard in place). John the Baptist was murdered by King Herod because he used "righteous judgement" toward Herod's un-Biblical behavior (Matt 14: 1-12). Was the Baptist wrong to "criticize" the behavior of Herod? I don't think so, because he backed up his statements with Biblical truth. Would you have told the Baptist to "stop criticizing" if you were there at the time he said this to Herod? GOD FORBID! Elijah was tormented by the evil Queen Jezebel because he used "righteous judgement" toward her (and her corrupted husband Ahab's) un-Biblical behavior (1 Kings 19: 1-3). Was it wrong for Elijah to have done this? Again, I do not think so. Exhortation is a very good thing (1 Thess 5: 14, 1 Tim 4: 13, Titus 1: 9).

Scarlet O, the Titus 2 text is very straightforward. The Titus text on this subject speaks explicitly to woman with husbands, woman with children (please re-read verses 4-5 again). If you think I am wrong, please tell me why (citing chapter and verse in the Titus 2 text).

Okay. I don't want to use up too much BaptistBoard bandwith - so I'll leave it here. Thank you again all for your comments. It is very much appreciated.

latterrain77

 

Latterrain, I want to encourage you to keep fulfilling what God has commanded older women to do in Titus chapter 2! I take it that you are a keeper at home, so therefore, you are not passing *hypocritical* judgement as found in Matthew 7:1-5. So many times people just quote verse one and leave it there but Jesus goes on to tell us to "first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." He doesn't tell us to forget about the mote in our brother's eye. God commands us to judge righteous judgment. You also, have not said that any woman working outside of her home is going to hell, so therefore, you have not been a legalist.

Scarlett, you're right, Titus 2 *is* talking about all women. I've heard women say..."Well, I've not been convicted to be a keeper at home, so therefore I don't have to." For some reason, these women only pick out that part of verses 4 and 5 of Titus 2 (KJBible), " That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed." How many of these women would dare say, "Well, I've not been convicted to love my children...so, therefore I don't have to.?" God's Word says what it says whether we're convicted of it or not! Why deny God's command for women to be keepers at home but yet demand that we should be good, discreet, chaste, etc. Why should we love our husbands and children fulltime and only be a keeper at home part time? Yes, I have worked outside of the home in the past. It wasn't because that was what God called me to do, but rather what was expected of me from *society*. I have been active in Baptist churches all of my life and NOT ONE pastor nor 'older' woman has ever told me that the Bible says women are to be keepers at home! I pray that I will never be guilty of blaspheming the word of God by failing to teach other women all the things God has commanded in Titus 2.

Scarlett, God does deal specifically with the issue of idleness and busybodies in other scriptures. I know from experience that I can be both (idle and a busybody) even when I worked outside of my home! UGH! However, on the flip side of that, we can, *not* have a public job and still not be a keeper at home! (Does that make sense? )

[ July 23, 2002, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Farmer's Wife ]

 

Well, I'm not going to join the, er, discussion on validity out outside careers at this time, but I will share my answers to the asked questions.

I am finishing my bachelor's degree in Integrative Studies from Guilford College (founded by the Society of Friends and led by its principles). I have to complete my thesis, and will be finished with school (for now). My major is rather dilettante-ish - it's self-created, and has few practical applications. Hence the "for now" comment in reference to being finished with school. I plan to continue on to law school and study Constitutional law.

I am currently a reconciliation accountant for an investment firm. I enjoy it, and hope to continue in the field, but legal study and practice is my ultimate career goal.

As I am unmarried, there are no conflict with my having, or wanting to have, a career. I don't expect there to be one, either. My planned career is part of me, and it is one of the ways I plan to give to our community and culture. I cannot envision myself marrying someone who would want me to give it up. I am 25 now, and don't plan on having children for at least 7 years, by which time I hope to be able to work out of my home while my child (I only want one) is small.

If I have a daughter, I will encourage her to get the best education she can, and choose wisely how she uses it. If she chooses not to use it for a career, that's fine with me, as long as she makes a mindful decision.

 

Kelly, I was only a little younger than you when I had my life planned out, too. God had a different plan.

At some point you will have to choose between what HE wants for you, whatever it is, and your own plan for your life.

When I was in high school I was winning awards all over the state for public speaking and acting. Everyone KNEW, including me, that I would end up either on stage or in the movies. I was quite sure that being a teacher and a stay at home mother was the biggest waste of my wonderful talents that could ever be conceived of (please don't miss the sarcasm there...).

I taught for almost 30 years and loved it. I am the mother of six, five of whom are adopted special case kids. This is the only possible life that would have challenged me the way it did and used every bit of experience and talents the Lord ever blessed me with.

I can't tell you what the Lord has in mind for you, but I can guarantee you of one thing: it will be different than your own plan for your life. When the time comes, please remember that Jesus said, "If you love me, you will obey me." Because at that moment, you will be making one of the most important decisions of your entire life.

[ July 25, 2002, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

I completely understand. And I don't deny that my plan may change, but nor do I deny myself the ability to make one. What I think may happen may not actually come to fruition. I am hopeful that it will, and feel led to follow the career plans I laid out, though can accept that it may not come about as I think it will. But there are several things I do know.

I value the education I have as well as my ability to reason.

I value children, and trust my ability to raise them, even while continuing on what I believe to be the correct career path for me.

I have spent much time searching for my gifts and listening to suggestions on how I should use them. There are a few things I am convicted to do, and until or unless I am led to do otherwise, will pursue them.

Basically, I'm not going to put my life on hold waiting for marriage and children, because to do so is to waste the time I have now, which I don't think would please God at all. I'm going to make plans for my life as it is now and make changes as they become necessary.

I don't know if I will get married. It might be nice, but it certainly isn't a priority of mine. For now, my desires and leadings are all I have to work with. No other human is in the picture.

As I said, the work I do (even though it is not currently my job) is important to me, and I think it would take something extraordinary for me to leave that path. Perhaps that will come along. Perhaps not. Ideally, anyone I marry would understand my leading to do this work and we would create a partnership that enables me to do it.

Am I alone in that? I should hope not. I believe women can be led to do work outside the home as well as within it, even if they are married and mothers.

If marriage and children are all that I am led to do, I will do it, but I hope that is not the case. By that I don't mean to discount those jobs (although I do have doubts about "wife" being a job, per se, as "mother" is certanly a job) , but there are other things I would like to accomplish, with or without taking on either of those roles.

*phew* Talk about your stream-of-consciousness writing!