Women in Ministry

Why is it when other people use verses it "proof texting"? I was merely responding to the "use" of Debra to "prove" that women can teach or have authority over men when there is a verse that needs no explanation that teaches the exact opposite. The "pro-women in authority people" are guilty of explaining away some clear truths because of their doctrine that women are able to teach and have authority over men.

For example, your use of Phoebe being a deacon is probably influenced by the modern use of that term by baptist churches who have placed that label on the leaders of their churches. Clearly the term was used in the bible to describe one who serves. To turn that into a position of authority in the face of the Bible's teaching that women are not to teach or have authority over men makes the bible contradict itself. To allow the natural use of the word to be "serving" makes perfect sense for both passages.

The same goes for the word apostle. An apostle is a sent out one. All believers are sent out to minister, ie serve. Also, your abuse of Romans 16:7 is so far fetched it would be laughable were it not on a serious matter.

To imply that the use of one's house means that the person in the "authority" is equally weak. I have part of many home churches and the person who supplies the meeting place is always chosen because of the size of their house and not their ability to teach. Here again you are grabbing at straws to support YOUR doctrine.

I went through this issue during the 80's in the denomination that I grew up is. I left it because it became clear that the people were agenda driven and had become blinded to clear teaching because of their desire to get what they wanted. I would exhort you and anyone else reading this to see the danger in going this way.

I could go on, but I need to go and be a deacon to my family. :thumbs: I am trying to help my 5 daughters learn how to contend for the faith and prophesy regarding the wonderful truths of the gospel. I hope they will be outstanding in the church and help convert many.

 

I am sorry. I belive I misread your statement.

Phoebe, a woman, was a "diakonon" of the church in Cenchrea. The same Greek word translated "servant" here, is translated "minister" in twenty-two other scriptures such as in Col 1:25. I do not know why translators used the word 'servant' here instead of 'minister' unless it was because they could not bring themselves to accept the idea that a woman could have been a minister.

An Apostle is one who was specially chosen and sent by Jesus to spread and lead the early church. Apostles included the twelve Galileans and Saul of Tarsus (Paul) as well as others.

I was using this simply to show that a house was used, and the woman is named, and not a man. Perhaps she was not married. Perhaps she was a window. Perhaps her husband was not a believer. We simply do not know.

I went through this issue during the 80's in the denomination that I grew up is. I left it because it became clear that the people were agenda driven and had become blinded to clear teaching because of their desire to get what they wanted. I would exhort you and anyone else reading this to see the danger in going this way.

This is always a danger, ins't it, regardless of which side of a discussion we are on?

I could go on, but I need to go and be a deacon to my family. :thumbs: I am trying to help my 5 daughters learn how to contend for the faith and prophesy regarding the wonderful truths of the gospel. I hope they will be outstanding in the church and help convert many.[/QUOTE]

Blessings on your and your family.

 

Excellent point.

Deborah is both Judge AND prophetess in Israel -- no question that this was "leadership" annointed and appointed by God.

Who says "we can stop Him"??

Great list!!:applause:

Also note that this was a perfect place to claim that "Aquilla taught/instructed Appollos while Priscilla simply listened in quiet obedience - after all - at no time do we have women instructing men -- just children".

You have put a great list together - thanks!

in Christ,

Bob

 

1. Is the issue that women are not allowed to “speak” or make a “sound” in church?
2. Or can they speak and sing and testify and call for the offering as long as they don’t “lead” out in “teaching men anything”?
3. If so – what text is used?


And what is the end result for Beth Moore and others who stand up and teach "while men are present in the audience"??

Should Beth "command the men to leave" and if she directs them in that way "should they obey her"??


in Christ,

Bob

 

The men should stay. Any man who does not believe he can learn from a woman is showing the height of arrogance and ignorance. Accept truth where you find it!

 

This is stated in scripture somewhere...
J/K

There is a difference between a man and a woman which stretches beyond the physical features. You are a bit simplistic (or even sarcastic) to state that it is a physical matter, not spiritual... Besides that, the woman doesn't have the 'requirements to be a leader' if the leader is to be a man.

May I ask, Why would you or anyone else have such a big problem with this?

 

Would your poor logic also conclude children need not obey their parents for it is only a "physical matter"? How about us submitting to the governing authorities and paying our taxes?

The clear teaching of "I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" is based on the next verses " For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." These are not acceptable to you so you resort to taking words such as deacon and minister to show that Paul could not have meant what he clearly said under inspiration of the Holy Spirit in writing scripture. These words clearly have meanings that do not make Paul to be contradicting himself.

 

So Paul was not under inspiration of the Holy Spirit when he used the words deacon or minister?

Just asking

 

Of course he was. The problem starts when we put a meaning to the word that is not intended. For example, if you were to have asked me what a deacon was 25 years ago I would have said it was one of the guys that takes the collection and counts it after church and a minister was the guy who talked and made a lot of people fall asleep.

What does a servant do? How does someone minister?

Just asking.

 

As long as they are the husband of one wife!

BBob,

 

Depends on what age a child becomes a man. Our culture defines it at 18.

Let me throw this out to those who believe women can be elders...if my wife is commanded to submit to my authority as the head of home, and she becomes an elder at my church...does she have to submit to me, or I to her (remembering that the elders are the spiritual "rulers" of the church, and the husband is the spiritual "ruler" at home).

 

I would say that if you are truly desiring to do this according to God's will and ask, God will give you the wisdom that will help make this happen properly. However, if you are only asking to try make this appear to be impractical and nonsensical you will never go beyond the preconceived notion that you appeared to present earlier.

From your post #46
Why didn't Jesus choose any women to be among His twelve original apostles? Jesus could not choose women to be among the twelve because it would not be wisdom for men and women to be travelling about together when many of them were single. Also, the twelve apostles fulfilled the "type and shadow" of the twelve patriarchs, so they had to be equal to men (Revelation 21:12, 14). However, this doesn't mean that he does not anoint women to fill an apostolic role today, as we already established in the case of Junia.

You apparently are on the same "side" with the individual that made the weak case by saying that Jesus only chose men because of concerns over the appearence of impropriety of men and women travelling together. How foolish. Enough of your smug questions.