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Worship in the Melting Pot
- Thread starter Aaron
- Start date
Is this what he believes that you are referring to?
http://www.freedomministries.org.uk/masters/idiom6.htm
If so, he took it out of context.
Look at John 4
The woman thought you had to worship God on a specific mountain..Jesus corrected her... you can do it anywhere, because worship is not tied to location.... "in spirit"
The woman only knew of "the messiah" from the first 5 books of the Bible... the only ones the Samaritans were allowed to use. She had a shadow of the Messiah, but not the real thing.... BUT Jesus was the real thing..."The Truth".
So in "Spirit and Truth" means that we can worship Jesus (truth) any where and anyhow the Holy Spirit leads us to (Spirit)
Now of course you will disagree, but that is my interpretation.
http://www.freedomministries.org.uk/masters/idiom6.htm
If so, he took it out of context.
Look at John 4
The woman thought you had to worship God on a specific mountain..Jesus corrected her... you can do it anywhere, because worship is not tied to location.... "in spirit"
The woman only knew of "the messiah" from the first 5 books of the Bible... the only ones the Samaritans were allowed to use. She had a shadow of the Messiah, but not the real thing.... BUT Jesus was the real thing..."The Truth".
So in "Spirit and Truth" means that we can worship Jesus (truth) any where and anyhow the Holy Spirit leads us to (Spirit)
Now of course you will disagree, but that is my interpretation.
I think he was answering her mistaken theology.
She believed that she had to worship in the place Samaritans worshiped.
John 4:20-23
(20) Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
(21) Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
(22) Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
(23) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
I believe Jesus was telling her that the place of worship is not important.
Worship is not about the physical, but about the spiritual.
That is why he said true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:
One of the strange beliefs the Samaritans had was that only the 1st 5 books of the bible were inspired... And not only that, but only their copy of the 1st 5 books...They believed they had the only Authorized, inspired, preserved copy of the 1611... er.... I mean... books of Moses.
In those books, we have the shadow of Jesus.
In those books God reveals Himself as "I Am"
But because she was standing there in front of "I Am" she did not have to rely on these shadows to understand God... She now knows the truth.
As a matter of fact, right after these verses Jesus reveals himself to her as "I Am"...
When you take the order of the words in that verse in Greek, it says:
"I am that speaks to thee." (Check it out in any interlinear Bible to see for yourself)
So there she is standing face to face with the Truth.
Remember Jesus said that he is the way, the TRUTH, and the life.
In a way, Jesus is answering the questions that He knew she needed answered... Just like He did for Nicodemus. Remember, Nicodemus never mentioned how to get to Heaven, but Jesus still answered him, by telling him he must be born again.
I realize that there may be other interpretations, but that is what I get out of it.
We must worship God in truth (Jesus) and in Spirit (not tied to the physical)
She believed that she had to worship in the place Samaritans worshiped.
John 4:20-23
(20) Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
(21) Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
(22) Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
(23) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
I believe Jesus was telling her that the place of worship is not important.
Worship is not about the physical, but about the spiritual.
That is why he said true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:
One of the strange beliefs the Samaritans had was that only the 1st 5 books of the bible were inspired... And not only that, but only their copy of the 1st 5 books...They believed they had the only Authorized, inspired, preserved copy of the 1611... er.... I mean... books of Moses.
In those books, we have the shadow of Jesus.
In those books God reveals Himself as "I Am"
But because she was standing there in front of "I Am" she did not have to rely on these shadows to understand God... She now knows the truth.
As a matter of fact, right after these verses Jesus reveals himself to her as "I Am"...
When you take the order of the words in that verse in Greek, it says:
"I am that speaks to thee." (Check it out in any interlinear Bible to see for yourself)
So there she is standing face to face with the Truth.
Remember Jesus said that he is the way, the TRUTH, and the life.
In a way, Jesus is answering the questions that He knew she needed answered... Just like He did for Nicodemus. Remember, Nicodemus never mentioned how to get to Heaven, but Jesus still answered him, by telling him he must be born again.
I realize that there may be other interpretations, but that is what I get out of it.
We must worship God in truth (Jesus) and in Spirit (not tied to the physical)
Thank you,
So when we Worship God today it must also be in Spirit and Truth..
Truth:
Jesus must be the object of our worship
Spirit:
We are not to be preoccupied with the physical aspects of worship.
This is where the differences come from..
People focus on the position of their body.... kneel, head down, prostrate, etc...
They focus on where they are, ... in church, at the altar, etc...
Or what we are talking about here.... the style of music.
When the style of music is more important than the attitude of the heart it is not true worship.
And both sides are guilty of this.
If I say I must have drums and electric guitars to worship, I am totally wrong...
If I say I must have only hymns, and an organ to worship, I am totally wrong....
Why.. . Because it is not about the physical, it is about the spiritual, and God accepts worship from an organ or Electric Guitar... actually, it is the worship from the heart of the person playing the instrument...
Trying to limit God to any physical kind of worship is doing the same thing as the Samaritans.
So when we Worship God today it must also be in Spirit and Truth..
Truth:
Jesus must be the object of our worship
Spirit:
We are not to be preoccupied with the physical aspects of worship.
This is where the differences come from..
People focus on the position of their body.... kneel, head down, prostrate, etc...
They focus on where they are, ... in church, at the altar, etc...
Or what we are talking about here.... the style of music.
When the style of music is more important than the attitude of the heart it is not true worship.
And both sides are guilty of this.
If I say I must have drums and electric guitars to worship, I am totally wrong...
If I say I must have only hymns, and an organ to worship, I am totally wrong....
Why.. . Because it is not about the physical, it is about the spiritual, and God accepts worship from an organ or Electric Guitar... actually, it is the worship from the heart of the person playing the instrument...
Trying to limit God to any physical kind of worship is doing the same thing as the Samaritans.
rbell said:
I love that song...
Check out this link. http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xi2cU8x4OZk
The first 40 seconds are not good, (They are tuning up) but after that THEY ARE GOOOOD!!!
Are you serious?!!!
Man I would love to have done that.... Keith Lancaster isn't it?
I saw them in college back in 88.
My wife and I started dating by forming a group that sang some of their songs.
I have our choir working on that song at church for the last few weeks.
Wow, I have a new respect for you.
Man I would love to have done that.... Keith Lancaster isn't it?
I saw them in college back in 88.
My wife and I started dating by forming a group that sang some of their songs.
I have our choir working on that song at church for the last few weeks.
Wow, I have a new respect for you.
That's the abridged version, but you would do well to read that series of articles.tinytim said:
It is not out of context at all, and the woman's specific question does not limit the application. On the contrary. John 4:24 stands alone and is not dependant whatever on the context of the chapter. Christ illuminated a universal, non-optional principle and applied it to the woman's question. Its scope is much more broad and bears on much more than the mere location of worship.
Do you see how your answer doesn't bring us any closer to understanding what "in spirit and in truth" means? Summed up, your answer says simply that spiritual worship is anything I feel like it is.
Worse than that, you completely misconstrued the text. "In truth" is the manner of our worship, not the object of it. The Father is the object of our worship, and We worship the Father IN truth, and IN spirit, and you have yet to explain to us what that means.
May we worship the Father with incense?
What of the lighting of lamps or candles?
May I worship Him with artifacts, e.g. statues, icons, relics, etc.?
May I offer a burnt offering? (The Burnt offering was not a Sin or Trespass offering, by the way.)
Rest assurred that the manner of worship commanded by Christ with the words, "in truth and in spirit" will ban any thing that bears any shadow of the law. That's one thing that is for certain. So, your conclusion that I may worship "anyhow" I feel I may be led isn't really true.
But "in truth and in spirit" also bears on the manner of the worship of the pagans as well. May I worship with art? Dancing? Drama? Parades? Or did they have it right all along?
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whatever said:Pastor,
Very good, thanks. I think you've nailed it. (And without hostility too.)
The hostility I was referring to was directed toward Masters, not myself. Ann began by suggesting that Masters hadn't experienced "true" worship, that old hymns had no meaning, an accusation she quickly backpeddled on.
Tiny followed by marginalizing Masters intelligence and basic character, "ilk," an obsolete term that is used only in a derogatory sense in general conversation these days. And he did that without even reading him.
Aaron said:
Again, you are looking at the physical, just like Master's did... you are doing the same thing the woman did at the well....
In essence she was telling Christ, "You can't worship God in Jerusalem, you have to worship God on this mountain"
You are saying, "You can't worship God with drums or modern worship, you have to worship God by hymns"
You are relegating worship to the physical... just the opposite of the spiritual.
Aaron said:
Did you even read my explanation?
Jesus reveals to her that He is the "I am"
He also says in another place He is "the truth"
She was worshipping a shadow of Jesus... Now she can worship IN truth knowing that Jesus is God.
IN spirit opposes her idea that there is a right way to worship using the physical (like on a mountain)
Aaron said:
I don't know, can you do it while focusing your worship on God, knowing that Jesus is the Truth?
Has the spirit led you to?
If you do it to have people focus on you, or you take the attention from God, or the Spirit hasn't led you to, then it would be inappropriate worship.