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You can almost always see them coming...

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by All about Grace, Sep 26, 2005.

  1. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Not saying that at all. What I am saying is that people of this persuasion have a tendency to display a spirit of spiritual superiority that is unwarranted (as you seem to illustrate in your subsequent posts).

    Case and point....he shoots and scores!

    I can't believe you ask this with a sincere look on your face. Can you also point me to the terms monergism, Calvinism, total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistable grace, and perseverance of the saints in the Scriptures? And while you are at it, can you point to the term doctrines of grace and ----lapsarianism (you fill in the blank based on your own preference)? Please don't try and pull that trick.

    Actually you have no idea how we do ministry. It is amazing to me how those who supposedly advocate God's sovereignty the most are the very ones who often limit it the most with their own presribed methods and "corrct" and "most spiritual" way of doing ministry.

    Simple yes and no questions for you (although I will not expect a simple yes or no answer): can a sovereign God work effectively through felt needs preaching, teaching and ministry? Can a sovereign God impart His grace just as effectively upon unbelievers through preaching that addresses real life issues?

    I will not even broach the issue of which pattern of ministry Jesus followed. I honestly just don't feel like seeing another card-carrier dance.

    Actually the purpose of our church is to glorify God by transforming people into authentic and passionate followers of Jesus Christ.

    And yes we do believe it is God who actually transforms.

    I will assume you are speaking in exaggerations here. If you actually believe what you say, any person who comes to faith in Jesus Christ is incapable of sincere Christian practice until he/she has obtained a certain level of knowledge.

    It is amazing how your words resemble those of the religious establishment Jesus spent a lot of his time rebuking -- those with a head full of knowledge and a heart full of disobedience.

    I say it again -- the average Christian's knowledge far exceeds their level of obedience and sacrifice.

    While we are on this subject, can you point me to a place where Jesus emphasized knowledge over practice as you suggest above?
     
  2. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Actually I was very kind to them and suggested that we get together at a later time and I would discuss as much of this issue as they desired.

    I am neither arrogant or condescending to those who are more Calvinistic. Actually I am one. I just don't try and pin God down to a human-contrived system, but I believe fully that God is the author and finisher of salvation. I have lived in your world. I understand it. I just merely think there is a tendency within that world to get focused on the wrong things (as demonstrated by the opening questions of those who approached me Sunday). By the way, I was cordial to the point I am sure they will return again (until they get dissatisfied and need to go "deeper" and then they will find that type of church again).

    That's for sure and that is the point!!!

    That is what we call our corporate gathering on Sunday morning. Problem?
     
  3. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    Matthew 22:29-- Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures...
     
  4. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    And then you came on here wishing for them to... "move to some island where they could sit around and defend their human system and not worry about the multitudes of unbelievers around them."
     
  5. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    Can a sovereign God work effectively through felt needs preaching, teaching and ministry? Yes

    Can a sovereign God impart His grace just as effectively upon unbelievers through preaching that addresses real life issues? Yes

    He can speak through the mouth of a talking ass if he chooses to.

    God uses imperfect people using imperfect means to accomplish His purposes-- all the time. However, these are not the qusetions we must ask. Rather, we must ask:

    What does God REQUIRE of us in our worship of Him?

    What does God REQUIRE of us in our preaching of the gospel?

    What does God REQUIRE of an effective ministry?

    To speculate about what God COULD do does not excuse of laxity in conforming ourselves to what he has REQUIRED.
     
  6. here now

    here now Member

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    Did Christ die for the "non elect"?
    They sure try! The "L" petal is not found in the Bible.
    </font>[/QUOTE]No, Christ did not die for the non elect. That would not make any sense.

    Sure the "L" is in the Bible...Jesus died for His people, not all people.
     
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Did Christ die for the "non elect"?
    They sure try! The "L" petal is not found in the Bible.
    </font>[/QUOTE]No, Christ did not die for the non elect. That would not make any sense.

    Sure the "L" is in the Bible...Jesus died for His people, not all people.
    </font>[/QUOTE]See, you proved my point. You limit Christ's atonement to a specific population. BTW, "L" is not in the Bible. The world is.
     
  8. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Yes he did, Scripture says that Christ dies "once for all".

    However, the elect "accepted him not" and are hence not privileged to the grace emparted by Christ's death.
     
  9. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    You can't be serious. You are using this text to suggest that Jesus was emphasizing knowledge over practice???

    In actuality Jesus attacks their flawed understanding of Scripture and then immediately points out that the two greatest commandments have to do with loving God and others (practical acts).

    I will not even begin to lists the texts where Jesus points to practical living and never even mentions knowledge.
     
  10. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Actually it is called sarcasm ... and my point remains the same ... it would be much easier to gather those whose primary concern is trying to grasp an unfathomable truth and allow them to debate among themselves instead of distracting those of us who feel we are to focus on unbelievers.

    It has simply been my personal experience (both in my life and many, many others) that those who are focused on head knowledge most often look down on those who they feel are not focused on such things.
     
  11. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    It ain't about counting verses that have the word "knowledge" and counting the ones that don't and then ignoring the smaller list.

    Jesus was pointing out that if they had the right knowledge then they would have the right practice (which is what I've been saying).
     
  12. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    that it is done in spirit and truth

    that it is done faithfully

    that it is fulfilling God's purposes for the church

    Your answers?
     
  13. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Actually Jesus does not even address practice in the specific context. He simply corrects faulty knowledge. He then turns a theological question into a practical application.

    Can you point to a text where Jesus instructs us to "increase our knowledge" so that we can live the Christian life?

    Your earlier premise was that a person was incapable of living the Christian life until he/she had obtained a certain level of knowledge. How do you know when you have gleaned enough knowledge to begin practicing with the proper motives?
     
  14. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    No TexasSky God actually limits the atonement: Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " 1 Sam 3:14.

    Good old Eli. :cool: Limited atonement proved.

    john.
     
  15. King James Bond

    King James Bond New Member

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    All about Grace,

    You made a statement to us all. It was in line about how much you care about souls while at the same time you were trying to convince all of us that Calvinists must not care about souls as much as you do.

    Your very own words were;

    You also said;

    Now I am a pretty dumb guy in many ways....but I am not stupid enough to see that your point is that somehow you love human souls much more than Calvinists.

    Not only that.....but for us to claim that God is Sovereign in salvation means so little to you.

    It is wrong for us to claim that God is Sovereign in salvation but it is ok for you to claim that you must love souls and thus you save souls.

    How utterly absurd! Do you think that you love souls more than God does? Your own premise is that He loves everybody all the same. If He does....don't you think He has more power and will to save them than you do?

    You must care about souls very deeply......You care about all souls and of course much more than Calvinists and God does!

    According to you, Calvinists do not do enough for they claim that God is sovereign. But to you a Sovereign God does not do enough either! In your system it is you that works to save people.

    Since you and your congregation is so concerned about transforming souls into passionate followers of Jesus Christ you could be focusing on real people with real needs who need a real witness about a real faith.

    Maybe your Church body will all pitch in enough money together and send you away somewhere. Not an island though.

    I would suggest you go to Mecca, Saudi Arabia, during the time of Ramadan.

    You will find a vast amount of lost souls (real people) that are not passionate followers of Jesus Christ. You could get on a soapbox and yell out these very words;

    "All you sinners turn to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins".

    You could do that OR you could let God deal with the situation. And of course we all know how passionate you are about saving souls.

    And we all know by your words how God is not passionate enough to save souls.

    I asked you simply;

    Please elaborate on "focus on actually telling people about Christ and trying to help the average Joe & Jane in our crowd to understand what it means to live the everyday Christian life in 2005."

    You responded;

    Self explanatory. What needs explaining?

    I have this deep feeling that is almost the same answers you give people that are lost.

    Thanks for your strange mumbo jumbo.

    Some times I feel there are not enough antacid factories on this planet!

    May God be with you, KJB
     
  16. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Then what is to be made of these verses:


    1 Timothy 2:3-4 - This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


    1 Timothy 4:10 - For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

    Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men

    Romans 5:18 - So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

    Romans 6:10 - For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

    1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
     
  17. King James Bond

    King James Bond New Member

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    Jesus Christ has not atoned for the whole world as in every single solitary person.

    The word world in that sense is used to describe those other than Jews and meaning all kinds and types of people from all over the world.

    Merriam Webster says this on atonement;
    1 obsolete : RECONCILIATION
    2 : the reconciliation of God and man through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ
    3 : reparation for an offense or injury : SATISFACTION

    Merriam Webster says this on reconciled;
    1 a : to restore to friendship or harmony &lt;reconciled the factions&gt; b : SETTLE, RESOLVE &lt;reconcile differences&gt;
    2 : to make consistent or congruous &lt;reconcile an ideal with reality&gt;

    The only proper and Biblical way to understand the statement about Jesus Christ reconciling the world would be to conclude that the “atoning sacrifice for the whole world” has a meaning in a universal sense of fallen mankind as in all types of people but NOT all people.

    Some will say NO way!

    But the answer is YES way!

    It is simple actually. If the world is reconciled to God......that means there exists no more offence, no more injury, no more hostility.

    If men and God are reconciled why would God punish men?

    If Jesus Christ has indeed taken away the sins of the world in an all inclusive sense.......then the sin of unbelief would be gone.

    Why is it some people will be left in the sin of unbelief? Why is it some people will be in hell one day paying for their own sins if their sins were taken away?

    Why would God not be satisfied when Jesus Christ satisfied Him?

    Scripture declares (Jesus speaking) “The worlds sin is unbelief in Me.”

    If Jesus Christ atoned for every person head to head in view of the real and proper definition of ‘atonement’ no person would ever go to hell.

    The reason is very simple and clear. If every single person (whole world) has been reconciled to God there is no more offence.

    With reconciliation offence is gone. If the entire world has been atoned for and is reconciled to God offence does not exist anymore.

    Since there is no more offence and God has been satisfied why would He hand out punishment for what has been satisfied?

    However, if people are going to hell it must be reasonable to conclude that they must not be atoned for or reconciled to God.

    Regards, KJB
     
  18. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    So are you saying that every time a person becomes a believer Jesus dies again and is resacrificed?

    Heb. 10:12, "but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,"
     
  19. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    King James,

    Since most of your post is based on a faulty premise, viz. that I am not Calvinistic, I will only address a few relevant points. Most of the points you discuss do not apply to me since I believe firmly in the sovereignty of God in salvation. That is not the point.

    Actually what I am talking about is PRIORITIES. Some have prioritized a human system such as Calvinism over the practical side of shoeleather faith. It has nothing to do with who "cares about souls" the most and everything to do with what is our highest calling as believers -- defending a human system or pointing people to Jesus Christ. Again it is a matter of priorities. Once again, my experience is that there is a tendency among Calvinists to focus on defining and defending a God who goes beyond human comprehension.

    Herein lies part of the irony of Calvinism. Those who claim to defend God's sovereignty the most are often the same ones who tend to define God within the parameters of a human system and disallow charity among those who may differ. I have never had a Calvinist explain that irony in a reasonable manner.

    Let me mention again before you start dismissing my words as those of a "man-centered pragmatist" ... if one had to pin a label on me, I would be placed in the Reformed camp.

    The only thing that could be labeled absurd in these words is your line of reasoning. But again, you want to pigeonhole me into system in which I do not fit.

    Actually the culture we engage is about 95% lost, so I think we have a huge mission field right here. And by the way we do believe in a missional lifestyle that affects both our immediate culture and other parts of the world through going and giving.

    Actually we point them to the only hope of the world -- Jesus Christ. We do not allow a system to rob us of both the earnestness and joy of seeing lives transformed by the grace of God.

    Did you actually read what you wrote? And here I am thinking that most Calvinists are overly rational people...I guess there is an exception to every rule.

    If you want to address the subject matter from a proper premise, we can continue the discussion. You must start with the assumption that I too believe in the sovereignty of God in salvation.

    Proceed.
     
  20. King James Bond

    King James Bond New Member

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    All about Grace,

    I am only responding to the things you claimed. I added nothing to your words but only responded to them.

    I would suggest that you read "Institutes of the Christian Religion" by John Calvin. At the very least take a real quick look at some of his topics. It can be found right here.

    http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/ipb-e/epl-cvinst.html

    When you are done reading it all please tell us all about all the foul things in his human system.

    That man has a better understanding of all kinds of Godly and Biblical things than you and I would probably ever hope to understand both put together!

    I would be very disappointed if you really thought that John Calvin or myself point people to anything at all other than Jesus Christ.

    I do not really want you to go to Mecca. I agree with you that there is a huge mission field all around us.

    I was making a point. The point was a very good one. Arabians are souls too!

    If you truly believe that God is sovereign in salvation.....you must also believe that God most certainly has the means and power to compel a man in his most inner being with the motivation and conviction to tell people about Jesus Christ.

    My point in this entire matter is that you, I, Calvin, and the visitors to your Church do not have the exclusive on pointing people to Jesus Christ. The Father does!

    All that the Father has given to Him will come to Him.

    They will not come for the potlucks, the bingo games, the coffee and donuts..etc etc.

    I would hope you take the time to at least glance at John Calvins work before you convict or charge him with invention of a "human system".

    Some of the most brilliant and sound confessions of faith were based on sound Biblical principles and John Calvins study and effort at spreading all sorts of Biblical teachings to a world that somewhat in your very own words go to the tune of;

    focus on actually telling people about Christ and trying to help the average Joe & Jane in our crowd to understand what it means to live the everyday Christian life not only in the time of his own life, but as a work and effort for generations to come leading up to 2005 and years after.

    He was a man moved by God and you will see this if you only take the time to look. Please ket me know after you have read the institutes and maybe we can drum up some more of his writings.

    Nothing like getting to know a man by really getting to know a man.

    God bless you! KJB
     
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