You can almost always see them coming...

I knew there must be one out there somewhere.

 

All about Grace,

You speak about human systems as if we are supposed to listen to you, but are you more than human? Are your words more of divinity than Calvins?

It is ok for you to witness but not us or Calvin?

Your words were;

I am glad I turned in my card a few years ago and starting focusing on real people with real needs who need a real witness about a real faith.

So far I have only seen you use one verse out of Scripture in this entire thread, and it was a quote from another poster!

Matthew 22:29-- Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures...

Is there something wrong with all portions of the Bible? Are we supposed to cower and hide from "predestination".....Sovereign election.....attributes of God?

Don't you think man knows more about himself when he looks toward all things of God? Where would you get ALL types of information on important things if not from ALL of Scripture?

Monergist has given you an onslaught of great Bible verses and you do nothing but back track and tumble over your feet on all the things you stand for and against. You respond with;

Thank you for the list. It is a good one. It is irrelevant to the discussion but it is still a good list.

Wow! Now that is really smooth.

What about you and all those that disagree with you? You sure appear to show that you are on a much better and proper level than "those you can almost see coming".

Your entire topic is based on your idea that the reformed Calvinists that come to your church are messed up as in "non spiritual".

It is you that feel they are not working according to the Sovereign will of God.

But yet you say God uses all things as He wills.

Since it is God that uses ALL things differently as His sovereign method in bringing people to Jesus Christ......why do you a mere servant judge the work of His servants?

So why do you claim the Calvinists are screwed up? Does not God have the right to use them as He wills? Who are you to judge the servant of another?

So far I have not seen an apology from you for making Calvins teachings appear to be human teachings or a human system.....I expect we will never see one from you!

However, the fact remains that his teachings are based on Biblical study and although he is fully human his foundation is not.

Why should we listen to you (one that uses no Scripture) more than Calvin who always gave proof text for the claims that he made?

The premise he used was based on sound and solid Biblical principles and not things made up in his head.

This human system that you speak about was used by John Calvin as his real concerned effort in bringing people to know about Jesus Christ as well as an attempt to stop massive and severe persecution among Christians.

He used Scripture in all his points and it is one of.....if not the best confession of faith ever witnessed.

To everybody in here, I plead with you to read the first portion of John Calvins address;

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/ipb-e/epl-04/cvin1-02.txt

His very first proclamation was;

John Calvin prays Peace and Salvation in Christ.

Let the reader determine for himself the Godly system of things that Calvin was involved in.

You determine if John Calvin was pointing people away from Christ and proper living.

I think if you read it you will understand what kind of fruit All about Grace really puts out in this thread.

God bless you all, KJB

 

I suggest that wishing to rid oneself of the company of some for whom Christ died also does not follow the pattern of Jesus and is also not healthy for a church that seeks primarily to glorify Christ by making His glory known to unbelievers.

 

whatever,

Another very good and correct post!

"I have not come to bring peace, but a sword"

Rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy and slander of every kind.

Show proper respect to everyone : Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honour the King.

Live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.

Grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. This is why the world hates you, Remember the words I spoke to you: No servant is greater than his master.

My father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too am working.

For just as the Father raises the dead and gives life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, “I repent”, forgive him.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion and kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

The God of this age has blinded the mind of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Who has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.

God bless, KJB

 

All about Grace,

You said (to the same effect) you would favor these people being on a remote island.

It was as if you wish to say unbelievers were of no concern to Reformed people.

You also made note to your visitors that you are a witness......as if they are not.

Later you attempt to make it known that God could use donuts, coffee, and potlucks.

And why is it you do not think He may also use His servants? (Calvinists)

I say they witness better than donuts, coffee, and potlucks.

Regards, KJB

 

All about Grace,

For being a lead pastor and claiming that you love leading you sure need to figure out quite a few things.

First you should be ashamed of yourself.

When folks come to your door it does not mean they are preaching towards saving your souls since you are already in a Baptist Church.....

Maybe you could sit and fellowship with them.

You know.......slow to speak and quick to listen?

Your topic and your very first post gives us all a very good example of who you really are.

Why did you not sit and fellowship with them about the sovereignty of God? Is that a taboo topic among brohers in Jesus Christ?

You as a leader are supposed to build up and edify those in truth. Are the attributes of God now evil to discuss? Why is it you treat these people as if they are doing wrong?

You still have not explained how you focus on telling people about Christ! Do you tell them He is not sovereign? If they are telling you He is....isn't He?

At first here it is their system that is human.....and your system is made out to be divine (even though those are not your exact words). Later we find you say that all systems are human.

May I ask if God is sovereign.....how is it you know certainly that they are not being pushed by the power and Spirit of Almighty Sovereign God Himself?

One thing you were really honest about is how shallow you are. I am certain you said it without the same intent.

As for your comment;

What is that supposed to mean? Is that your new way of applying guilt to the man? And do you think God saw you as anything more than a wretch of a sinner when He saved you?

Since it is "all about grace"......do you somehow think for a moment that without the grace of God you could stand before God easier than John Calvin?

Isn't it written;

"You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

And whoever says to his brother, "Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, "You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

Do you think out of all the things you have done in all of your life that you could escape the wrath of God by your own merit and goodness?

Would you like to tell us all about that murderer Paul? David?

By way...what Church is it that you Pastor out in the wild west?

You know that actually we read your first post........it gave many people the very first impression of you.

As for all of your other posts after your initial post....... We could almost always see them coming!

If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, “I repent”, forgive him.

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion and kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

God bless you! KJB

 

I did not recall ever saying or posting that. However, I went back and re-read my posts to be certain I never said such a thing that I would never have thought of saying.

</font>[/QUOTE]Then what did you mean when you wrote, " Jesus Christ has not atoned for the whole world as in every single solitary person?"

 

Hello gb93433.

Time for a quick Eli I think: 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "

Not all men are atoned for. Do you accept this? If not why not please. That God swore an oath that He would not give an atonement for all men.

Preconceived notions have no place over God's word. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." Matt 1:21. And that is what He did once for all.

Do you believe that Christ died for His people and saved His people in total? If not why not please?

I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. John 17:9 says the world does not have a prayer but only those elect.

Do you believe that Jesus does not pray for men that are not chosen?

John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Do you believe that those who do not believe do not believe because they are not His sheep or do you reverse this scripture and say they are not His sheep because they don't believe?

john.

 

Poor Eli, always being yanked out of context by Johnp. If you have studied this passage, you will know that the atonement is referring to physical death of Eli's sons, and no animal offering being able to prevent that.

This verse does not point to election at all. Jesus is plainly saying that you don't have faith, because you are not my child. This is true for every believer and does not insinuate that His "sheep" are prevented from being His "flock".

 

Hello webdog.

Run that pass me again webdog I don't get it.

John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Why don't they believe?

john.

 

1Sa 3:14 And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering forever.
"Shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering" is in reference to Eli's family being killed violently. They had committed the sin unto death according to the Law, and no offering or animal sacrifice would prevent that. This is clearly speaking of physical death, and not spiritual death.

To use this verse for unconditional election and an argument for calvinism is a double standard. When non calvinists bring up verses that mention "whoever believe will be saved", the calvinistic argument is always "yeah, whoever DOES believe will be saved" and limits salvation to only a nebulous group, and not the correct intention. The correct question should be "do unbelievers have faith in Christ"? Was Jesus saying AT ALL that those who were not His sheep were prevented from becoming His sheep?
Jesus was saying matter of factly to the jews who were looking for a sign that Jesus was the Messiah, "you don't believe I'm the Messiah because you are not my followers". He goes on in the passage to give the characteristics of who His followers are, all of which were not characteristics of the Pharisees who refused to believe in Jesus.

 

Hello webdog.

So what you are saying is they did have an atonement or not?

But it is a fact: And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Gen 3:22.
But it is a fact: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44 says no one, this means everybody, no one means no one? No one can go to Jesus, that is, everone ever born, mankind cannot go to Jesus unless He is drawn by the Father. What does He do to those He draws? What does Jesus do to those the Father draws? No one can go to Jesus, no one can call on His name and that means no one can save themselves by calling on His name unless the Father draws him and he will be raised up. If you are not drawn to Jesus it is because you are not drawn by the Father in which case you don't stand a prayer because God hid the tree of life. And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Gen 3:22. And no one can go to Him unless drawn.

john.

 

For salvation? Most definately. For their breaking the law? No. Remember when Moses struck the rock instead of speaking to it? Similar consequences.

I agree man can't come to God unless God makes the first move. No argument from me. Jesus does say, howeverin John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself. This is not "elect" men, but all men.

 

Hello webdog.

I must say you are sticking true to form man. God says He swore an oath never to give atonement for Eli's household and you say He did! Amazing.

Answer the point man, does Jesus say He will raise those the Father draws or not? John 6:44 we were talking about and which you left half answered. What will Jesus do to those who the Father draws?

...all men. Must include Himself then or it is not all men is it? Answer required.

john.

 

And I would suggest every church is not intended for every believer. I love people in Christ yet recognize there are churches better equipped for certain Christians. This is simply the case here. There are many different type churches. Some are more focused on "deeper" teaching. Some are more focused on reaching unbelievers. Doesn't make either one more right or wrong. Just different. And that is a truth you will have an extremely difficult time getting a Calvinist to admit.</font>[/QUOTE]Of course different churches are better suited for different Christians. But God's stated purpose for giving differently gifted people to churches is to equip the members for the work of the ministry, which includes evangelism. In other words, you don't have some churches for teaching and others for evangelism. All churches ought to be about teaching and all churches ought to be about evangelism.

EDIT - By the way, I did not take your "move to some island" comment to mean that you wished that they would stay in their own churches. I took it to mean that you wanted nothing at all to do with them. That sentiment is what I find to be un-Christian. By the way, I struggle with the same feelings toward others over different issues, which is why I am sensitive, maybe overly sensitive, to this. I hope that helps explain where I am coming from.

[ September 29, 2005, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: whatever ]