You really expect me to believe...

[Bro. Curtis]

This will be my last post, for a while.

(Applause......)

But in short, I have gathered the following from my recent discussions here.

That Jesus Christ granted Peter supremity over sin.

That this same power has been delivered to the popes, and delegated to bishops and priests, that they may grant absolution, as taught by the chruch.

That this absolution is neccessary to be in good fellowship with the church.

And that only by confession, to a priest, is this absolution granted.

Even if the priest has unconfessed sin. His sin breaks God's covenant for him, but the Holy Spirit still guides others thru him. He's the one who pronounces pennance, so he's the one who grants absolution with the church, while yet, he may not be in good fellowship himself, his personal need for absolution with the church is irrelevant.

But only by this absolution, given by a man who may or may not have an unbroken covenant with God, can I enjoy the fullness of truth.

Even when the pennance can be a recitation of the "Hail Mary", a repetitive prayer, with the choice of facing a statue of her.

Just a few of the questions that I have.

I'll be back sometime in early '04. I've been enough time in the catechism (you guys ought to call it a "cataclysm"

) Time to put my nose in scripture. I wish you all well.

Curtis

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
This will be my last post, for a while.

(Applause......)

But in short, I have gathered the following from my recent discussions here.

That Jesus Christ granted Peter supremity over sin.

That this same power has been delivered to the popes, and delegated to bishops and priests, that they may grant absolution, as taught by the chruch.

That this absolution is neccessary to be in good fellowship with the church.

And that only by confession, to a priest, is this absolution granted.

Even if the priest has unconfessed sin. His sin breaks God's covenant for him, but the Holy Spirit still guides others thru him. He's the one who pronounces pennance, so he's the one who grants absolution with the church, while yet, he may not be in good fellowship himself, his personal need for absolution with the church is irrelevant.

But only by this absolution, given by a man who may or may not have an unbroken covenant with God, can I enjoy the fullness of truth.

Even when the pennance can be a recitation of the "Hail Mary", a repetitive prayer, with the choice of facing a statue of her.

Just a few of the questions that I have.

I'll be back sometime in early '04. I've been enough time in the catechism (you guys ought to call it a "cataclysm"

) Time to put my nose in scripture. I wish you all well.

Curtis

Well, for your sake, I hope that you have a greater ability to understand what you are reading in Scripture than what you have demonstrated here.

I'll miss you, Curits. You're very "interesting".

 

[Yelsew]

Trying2Understand, You've got to admit that the Catholic adherents who have been posting here have made the declarations that Bro. Curtis has listed.

Confessing to a priest is like putting your dirty clothes in dirty water expecting them to come out clean. It simply doesn't happen!

That is why Jesus taught us all to pray directly to the Heavenly Father and to make our Confessions to the Heavenly Father, and to receive our forgiveness from the Heavenly Father IN THE NAME OF JESUS! We therefore need no intercessors of our own sinful ilk, because we have the true intercessor between God and man, Jesus. Effective Intercessors are those who themselve are not in need of Forgiveness.

The organization of the Roman Catholic church is simply wrong for true Christians, for true disciples of the Christ for we have our True Shepherd, and we hear His Voice.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Trying2Understand, You've got to admit that the Catholic adherents who have been posting here have made the declarations that Bro. Curtis has listed.

No, actually I don't.

Confessing to a priest is like putting your dirty clothes in dirty water expecting them to come out clean. It simply doesn't happen!

Forgivenss of sin in Confession doesn't rely upon the sinlessness of the priest, but on the Mercy of God.

That is why Jesus taught us all to pray directly to the Heavenly Father and to make our Confessions to the Heavenly Father, and to receive our forgiveness from the Heavenly Father IN THE NAME OF JESUS! We therefore need no intercessors of our own sinful ilk, because we have the true intercessor between God and man, Jesus. Effective Intercessors are those who themselve are not in need of Forgiveness.

Well, then you've got that messy business of "retaining and remitting" that Jesus talked about.

The organization of the Roman Catholic church is simply wrong for true Christians, for true disciples of the Christ for we have our True Shepherd, and we hear His Voice.

So you say. Perhaps you just were not listening when Jesus founded His Church and gave the Keys to Peter and breathed authority into the Apostles.

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />That is why Jesus taught us all to pray directly to the Heavenly Father and to make our Confessions to the Heavenly Father, and to receive our forgiveness from the Heavenly Father IN THE NAME OF JESUS! We therefore need no intercessors of our own sinful ilk, because we have the true intercessor between God and man, Jesus. Effective Intercessors are those who themselve are not in need of Forgiveness.

Well, then you've got that messy business of "retaining and remitting" that Jesus talked about.
</font>[/QUOTE]There you go again, appealing to Scripture as if that would prove your point!

Obviously a sinful man cannot forgive sin. Just like sinful men could not inerrantly write down and discern the Scriptures. That's why the bible came directly down from heaven on a pillar of fire. Right?

 

[CatholicConvert]

Confessing to a priest is like putting your dirty clothes in dirty water expecting them to come out clean. It simply doesn't happen!

Good anaology, but let me modify it a bit. It is like putting your clothes in a washing machine that is covered in dirty, groans and howls when it runs, and makes funny smells.

But the clothes still get clean, because it is the water which does the cleaning, not the machine.

The priest is just a tool in God's hands. He is indwealt by the living Christ in a very special way, and it is Christ within him Who does the forgiving. It is not the priest himself, and I think we have said this before.

Brother Curtis....happy trails to you, partner!! Do some good study and come back strong and ready for the debates!!

God love ya!!

Brother Ed

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
This will be my last post, for a while.

(Applause......)

But in short, I have gathered the following from my recent discussions here.

That Jesus Christ granted Peter supremity over sin.

That this same power has been delivered to the popes, and delegated to bishops and priests, that they may grant absolution, as taught by the chruch.

That this absolution is neccessary to be in good fellowship with the church.

And that only by confession, to a priest, is this absolution granted.

Even if the priest has unconfessed sin. His sin breaks God's covenant for him, but the Holy Spirit still guides others thru him. He's the one who pronounces pennance, so he's the one who grants absolution with the church, while yet, he may not be in good fellowship himself, his personal need for absolution with the church is irrelevant.

But only by this absolution, given by a man who may or may not have an unbroken covenant with God, can I enjoy the fullness of truth.

Even when the pennance can be a recitation of the "Hail Mary", a repetitive prayer, with the choice of facing a statue of her.

Just a few of the questions that I have.

I'll be back sometime in early '04. I've been enough time in the catechism (you guys ought to call it a "cataclysm"

) Time to put my nose in scripture. I wish you all well.

Curtis

Did the Old Testament sacrifices require that the priest be completely sin free? You seem to think the Holy Spirit can't work through sinners. Caiphas kind of blows you theory. Check him out while your reading those scriptures.

My guess is you won't have much luck understanding scripture either. I will however pray that God might enlighten you.

 

[GraceSaves]

The role of penance, even though it has been explained, is still put up there with "absolution," like it is a part of that. How can one claim to be listening when he/she restates what has been said it comes back a garbled mess?

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
Even when the pennance can be a recitation of the "Hail Mary", a repetitive prayer, with the choice of facing a statue of her.

I loved that. The Hail Mary is a repetitive prayer? Heh, no. It's a prayer, that can be repeated in certain longer prayers (i.e., Rosary), but it is silly to call it a "repetitive prayer." I can repeat any prayer as much as I want, but that doesn't make it a "repetitive prayer," unless the prayer itself repeats portions within itself.

Either way, I like how you just threw that in there, like it had some non-derogatory significance to the discussion at hand.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Trying2Understand, You've got to admit that the Catholic adherents who have been posting here have made the declarations that Bro. Curtis has listed.

Confessing to a priest is like putting your dirty clothes in dirty water expecting them to come out clean. It simply doesn't happen!

That is why Jesus taught us all to pray directly to the Heavenly Father and to make our Confessions to the Heavenly Father, and to receive our forgiveness from the Heavenly Father IN THE NAME OF JESUS! We therefore need no intercessors of our own sinful ilk, because we have the true intercessor between God and man, Jesus. Effective Intercessors are those who themselve are not in need of Forgiveness.

The organization of the Roman Catholic church is simply wrong for true Christians, for true disciples of the Christ for we have our True Shepherd, and we hear His Voice.

And some of those who "have" the ability to absolve one from sin are declared pedophiles throught the courts. I suspect God knew about it long before the reporters and the victims did.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Confessing to a priest is like putting your dirty clothes in dirty water expecting them to come out clean. It simply doesn't happen!

Good anaology, but let me modify it a bit. It is like putting your clothes in a washing machine that is covered in dirty, groans and howls when it runs, and makes funny smells.

But the clothes still get clean, because it is the water which does the cleaning, not the machine.

The priest is just a tool in God's hands. He is indwealt by the living Christ in a very special way, and it is Christ within him Who does the forgiving. It is not the priest himself, and I think we have said this before.

Brother Curtis....happy trails to you, partner!! Do some good study and come back strong and ready for the debates!!

God love ya!!

Brother Ed </font>[/QUOTE]Are you saying that when you have gone to confesssion the priest has never declared your sins absolved?

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by gb93433:
Are you saying that when you have gone to confesssion the priest has never declared your sins absolved?

It has not happened to me, but it has happened to someone that I know.

Father refused absolution because that person was not willing to make the change in his lifestyle necessary to end a particular sin that was part of that lifestyle.

Such an unwillingness to make the changes necessary to avoid that sin in the future indicated a lack of true repentance.

For example the guy who is "living with" a woman who is not his wife, and refuses to move out, shows no real repentance for his particular sin.

 

[Briguy]

Hi Guys! Happy Thanksgivng!!!!

One thought raced into my already full brain. What if the priest is a fake. Just somebody who chose to go to priest school for something to do or because his parents pushed him. What I mean is that he does not believe even in God really and does not believe what the church teaches. There are priests and pastors in all denominations who fit this category, not lots or anything but they exsist. How can that person forgive the sins of others if he was never called to the position that he is in? Does the church placing a person in a position that they don't believe in, still put them in that position, in the eyes of God? If he says to a person sinning that he grants them forgiveness just because he always just says that to get rid of the people, mean they are really forgiven? This is a possible scenario in the year 2003, without a doubt.

Thanks in advance for your answers.
In Christ,
Brian

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Hi Guys! Happy Thanksgivng!!!!

One thought raced into my already full brain. What if the priest is a fake. Just somebody who chose to go to priest school for something to do or because his parents pushed him. What I mean is that he does not believe even in God really and does not believe what the church teaches. There are priests and pastors in all denominations who fit this category, not lots or anything but they exsist. How can that person forgive the sins of others if he was never called to the position that he is in? Does the church placing a person in a position that they don't believe in, still put them in that position, in the eyes of God? If he says to a person sinning that he grants them forgiveness just because he always just says that to get rid of the people, mean they are really forgiven? This is a possible scenario in the year 2003, without a doubt.

Thanks in advance for your answers.
In Christ,
Brian

Hi Brian, and Happy Thanksgiving!

Since the priest grants absolution in the name of God through the authority of God given to the Apsotles by Jesus, then yes, it is a valid absolution.

That is why the state of the priest, as it relates to his own personal sinfullness, is not an issue.

Would someone who became a judge be any less of a judge because he took the position due to pressure from his parents?

Would that make the findings of innocence or guilt that he makes any less valid or binding?

No, because the authority which gives him the power to determine the innocence or guilt of the accused is not dependent upon such things.

The authority of the Church comes from God, mere humans cannot invalidate that authoriity.

Ron

 

[Briguy]

Hi Ron,
I do understand the argument. I am troubled by the fact that a non-Christian could not absolve a persons sin, for any reason, even that they dislike the person and because of that the person will be in purgetory longer or even in Hell forever depending on the sin. That is a possibe based on what you said, right? Kind of like the judge that throws the book at someone just because he feels like it. Would God leave such crucial judgement in the hands of sinful men? Make me understand because I am struggling, not with the concept but with the possibilities that can come from the concept.
Thanks, In Christ,
Brian

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Briguy:
I am troubled by the fact that a non-Christian could not absolve a persons sin, for any reason, even that they dislike the person and because of that the person will be in purgetory longer or even in Hell forever depending on the sin.

Brian, you are presupposing a non-Christian Catholic priest is hearing confession? A little odd, wouldn't you agree?

As to not absolving sin because the priest has a dislike for a person; confession is secret. I can go to confession to my parish Pastor and retain my identity as a secret. By choosing to remain behind a screen that separates us, I can confess my sins out loud without him knowing who he is talking to.

In the case of a priest not granting absolution because he was not convinced of the sincerity of the repentance of the person confessing, the person confessing may express his repentance more clearly or forcefully to Father, or may take a little time to relfect upon it and ask themselves if perhaps Father had a point.

Also, I may go to confession to any priest at any time and at any place. I have gone to confession a couple thousand miles from home while traveling just because I was moved to do so.

Nothing would stop one from doing so if one felt that a particular priest unjustly withheld absolution.

Make me understand because I am struggling, not with the concept but with the possibilities that can come from the concept.

The other side of the coin is what I perceive as a possibility for lighthearted confession of sin by those who "go straight to God".

You know, someone who says to God they are sorry for their sins as they merrily go along in the same sinful state.

When you say your sins out loud to another human being, it can be a very humbling experience indeed.

And when you actually hear the words out loud, that you are forgiven, it can be a very freeing experience.

Remember, Brian, that we are humans and a human psychology is one of the gifts that God gave us when we were created. It should be no surprise then that God uses our human psychology in our relationship to Him.

Ron

 

[Briguy]

Ron, my example is extreme, I know that. there is times when a priest will know who he is talking to by the sound of their voice. Work with me here. Say all that I said is true, then what. Oh and believe me there are priests and pastors everywhere who have not placed their trust in Christ, hence the verse that says Go away from me I never knew you. I am guessing some of the sexual defiant priests are non-christians, wolves in sheeps clothing.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Ron, my example is extreme, I know that. there is times when a priest will know who he is talking to by the sound of their voice. Work with me here. Say all that I said is true, then what. Oh and believe me there are priests and pastors everywhere who have not placed their trust in Christ, hence the verse that says Go away from me I never knew you. I am guessing some of the sexual defiant priests are non-christians, wolves in sheeps clothing.

In Christ,
Brian

Brian,

What would you do in this case if you were God? If a person went to a priest (or so he believed), confessed his sins, was sincerely repentent and sought forgiveness, and the priest pronounced the words of absolution in the name of the Triune God. What would you do if you were God, and had instituted this sacrament for the good of your children?