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  #171  
Old 03-24-2012, 06:04 PM
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Iconoclast Iconoclast is offline
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HOS,
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37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
This giving of the father to the Son...is the covenant of redemption They all come ....irrestable grace
This verse in no way implies Irresistable Grace It doesn't really imply Resistable Grace either, it is simply silent on the subject. It does read "shall cometo me" and "him that cometh" is that Calvinism? 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jesus comes to die
No one verse says everything isolated by itself.
This section of jn 6....37-66...is speaking of God's eternal purpose of redemption...God's Covenant. it does not use the word Covenant...in the passage.Yet it is clearly speaking of this covenant....

as in 2 sam 7:
Quote:
8Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:

9And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.

10Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,

11And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.

12And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

15But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

16And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
The word Covenant does not appear here, but we see this in psa 89;
Quote:
3I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

4Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
Quote:
27Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

28My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

33Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

34My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

35Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
Once we establish the Covenant nature of the transaction...then the rest falls into place...both here and hebrews 2:9-16
Quote:
Jesus comes to die for those given to him -particular redemption-hebrews 2covenant of grace
Yes Jesus obeyed the Father... he did his Father's will not his, he said so in Gethsemane. Again this says NOTHING about "particular redemption"
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Wait a second, did this say "taste death for EVERY man"? No not possible.

that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death.
The everyone of hebrews to is explained in the passage...it tells us everyone who was in view...redemption is in view ...

[QUOTE
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


Do you see who are identified as the everyone....everyman..is everyone

the church, his brethren, those sanctified,the children given of the Father to the Son, the seed of Abraham...not the seed of Adam, those delivered,



In Jn 6...and here in hebrews 2...the atonement is in view..
Why are they given to the Son?
Why does it say they were sanctified for?
Why does it say they all come?
Why does it say he took them upon Himself?
Why do men need to come to the Son???

It is the out working of the Covenant of grace and redemption. This is what it means ...I came down from heaven to do the Fathers will.....that is the cross.
__________________
All that die have not the plague, and all that
perish eternally are not guilty of the same profligate sins.The covetous are
excluded from the kingdom of God no less severely than fornicators,
idolaters, adulterers, and thieves, 1 Corinthians 6:9,10.
  #172  
Old 03-25-2012, 06:24 AM
HeirofSalvation HeirofSalvation is offline
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ICON,

Quote:
All that the Father gives me..Shall come to me....
All that are given come.....no more, no less
no one is lost.....no one ultimately resists, they come...
I am sorry, but there is clear eisegesis here... This verse simply does not say ...."No more, no less" it does say no LESS consider this sentence..."All who were invited to the party attended" Obviously all invitees (those the Father gives me) for this purpose do attend....suppose non-invited wedding crashers...they also show up! I am not claiming there are such "wedding crashers" but you have already read into this verese more than it actually says.

Quote:
This section of jn 6....37-66...is speaking of God's eternal purpose of redemption...God's Covenant. it does not use the word Covenant...in the passage.Yet it is clearly speaking of this covenant....
Is it so CLEARLY speaking of this covenant? After all, it does not ever SAY that. This is (even if accurate) a bald assertion you are making.

Quote:
Once we establish the Covenant nature of the transaction...then the rest falls into place...both here and hebrews 2:9-16
So far Calvinistic principles do not yet necessarily follow, possibly perhaps, but not necessarrily. Let's see if they do...

Quote:
Do you see who are identified as the everyone....everyman..is everyone
This is sheer equivocation..

Quote:
the seed of Abraham...not the seed of Adam, those delivered,
Jesus was of the seed of Abraham (at least Mary his Mother was)...who was the seed of....ta da! Adam.... Jesus was a Jew... The author of..HEBREWS was writing to Jews... Every Jew is of the seed of Adam. Hence, the subject of the book of HEBREWS Jesus is decidedly their BRETHREN. Hence the very reasonable reference to being the "High Priest" vs. 17. I appreciate your responses, but looking objectively, if one does not already ASSUME Calvinism, these passages in no way support it. They do not preclude it either! These passages are ostensibly silent as to the unique claims of Calvinism. Try for a second to divest yourself of an ingrained Calvinism, and I think you may find that these conclusions are NOT obvious. They may SEEM so to you, after all, I ASSUME free will, and Unlimited Atonement, so as a rule, I see my assumptions EVERYWHERE in Scripture, even, to some extent, these passages of yours (but not much).
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